Python's website does a great disservice to the language


C

CppNewB

CppNewB>and maybe a readable default font is in order.<

That font looks fine to me, maybe there's a problem in the default font
of your browser, you can probably fix your problem...

"Explicit is better than implicit"

I know how to change my default, you know how to change your default font,
but not everyone else does. If there's a more readable, default solution,
it should be utilized.
 
Ad

Advertisements

J

James Stroud

First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site."

The website is beautiful. I just looked. Its the logo that is a little
off-putting. It makes a pretty bad first impression. Compare it to java's.
Even the php logo looks better. For a real cool logo, check biopython.org.

James

--
James Stroud
UCLA-DOE Institute for Genomics and Proteomics
Box 951570
Los Angeles, CA 90095

http://www.jamesstroud.com/
 
S

Steven D'Aprano

I was trying to advocate using Python for an upcoming prototype, so my boss
went out to take a look at the documentation and try and get a feel for what
the language is all about.

First comment; "I hope the language is designed better than the site."

First comment: "I hope your boss can tell the difference between good
design of a computer language and good design of a website."

What was his second comment? "But I never judge a book by its cover" or "I
make technical decisions based on irrelevant factors"?

The site is readable, but is amateurish. If I had an ounce of design skills in
me, I would take a stab at it.

Ah, well since you and your lack of design skills are such an expert on
good design, perhaps you would like to enlighten us poor peons as to what
in particular is amateurish about "the site".

You might like to tell us in particular, which site?

http://www.python.com/ perhaps?
http://www.python.net/
http://www.python.org/
http://www.pythonware.com/
http://www.pygame.org/

Heaven forbid that your boss might have got confused and gone here:
http://www.pythonline.com/

And then you might like to point us at a language site or two that your
boss considers "professional".
 
M

Mike Meyer

CppNewB said:
My thoughts weren't to add a flash demo or develop some 500K logo or fixing
the font size. But the logos look like they were done in Paint and maybe a
readable default font is in order.

So what's wrong with the fonts they use - where they didn't let your
browser pick them, anyway. In the latter case, the fault is yours, not
theirs.

<mike
 
G

Grant Edwards

Yep, let's make this the new official python site ;)

Well, I have to admit that I think the scheme they use to get
you load the large flash chunk is pretty clever. Most sites
just have a large blank rectangle where the flash stuff is
supposed to be. These guys have figured out that they should
put something _under_ the flash rectangle that elicits a click
out of people who have flash disabled by default.

Um, not that I clicked, or anything...
 
Ad

Advertisements

E

Ed Singleton

I think I'm going to back you up a little bit here.

You've gone about this in a bit of a half-assed way (and pissed off a
fair few people in the process) but you are right that the site needs
a redesign.

It uses tables for layout with inline styles and font tags and doesn't
really use CSS. It has invalid html, and doesn't even attempt xhtml.
From an accessiblity point of view it has a poor choice of font and a
poor choice of colours (blue links on a blue background).

Design issues such as what logos to use and such aren't really my
forte, but from a web developers point of view it's a badly made
website.

Ed
 
B

Ben Sizer

CppNewB said:
But the logos look like they were done in Paint and maybe a
readable default font is in order.

I can't believe you think the font there is unreadable. It's left to
the browser default, which is usually set to a simple serif font, which
in turn is presumably the default because the majority of all books,
magazines, and newspapers in existence use it, and have found it
perfectly readable up to now. With the ability of the user to customise
their font size, surely this is by definition more readable than any
arbitrarily chosen typeface and size which cannot possibly suit
everybody? You can append "body { font-family: sans-serif; font-size:
10pt; }" to the CSS and make it look 'professional' but it doesn't make
it more readable. Really this just comes down to preconceptions over
how a site 'should' look based on other sites, not on any tangible
difference.
 
G

Guest

Ben Sizer said:
I can't believe you think the font there is unreadable. It's left to
the browser default, which is usually set to a simple serif font,
which in turn is presumably the default because the majority of all
books, magazines, and newspapers in existence use it, and have found
it perfectly readable up to now.

Actually it does set some fonts ("avantgarde" and
"lucidasomethignorother") as first choices. I guess you, like me, and
probably most people in here, doesn't have those installed.
 
B

Ben Sizer

Björn Lindström said:
Actually it does set some fonts ("avantgarde" and
"lucidasomethignorother") as first choices. I guess you, like me, and
probably most people in here, doesn't have those installed.

As far as I can tell, those fonts are only set for 'pre' and 'h' tags.
 
B

beza1e1

Things, which can be done better are:

- seperate content and layout (no table design, no font tags, ...)
- blue links on blue background are nearly as ugly as visited-purple
links on blue background
- he frontpage is overloaded. Ok this is worth a discussion: poweruser
vs. marketing
 
Ad

Advertisements

F

Fredrik Lundh

CppNewB said:
But the logos look like they were done in Paint

that's probably why the designers won a prestigious design award
for their:

"...innovative letter designs and typographic experiments,
which are testimony to their unconventional thinking about,
and use of, existing software applications. By actually
modifying the software they are able to escape the
standard of existing digital letters. In doing so, their
letter types show a kind of obstreperous mentality and
sense of humour."

a version of Paint that works on a Mac, an obstreperous mentality,
and a sense of humour. what else do you need?

</F>
 
S

Simon Brunning

a version of Paint that works on a Mac, an obstreperous mentality,
and a sense of humour. what else do you need?

Biscuits. You need biscuits.

Treating-this-thread-as-seriously-as-it-deserves-ly y'rs,
Simon B.
 
T

The Eternal Squire

I like the Python website just fine. It has exactly what it needs to
document and advocate Python, no more and no less. Plus, it loads
quite fast. Two suggestions for the OP:

1) Go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon and read or buy the book "Web
Sites That Suck". It is a fully detailed and annotated text showing
what not to do on websites, and why.

2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software
engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with
at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a
person should also behave as a sensei to the team members, that is,
having the ability to motivate by example and by knowledge.

The Eternal Squire
 
A

Alex Martelli

The Eternal Squire said:
2) Consider what he really wants for a supervisor of software
engineers. Ideally such a person should be a software engineer with
at least 3 times the experience of the most junior member. Such a

I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team
member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the
supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-)


Alex
 
S

Steve Holden

Alex said:
I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team
member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the
supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-)
It worked for Microsoft ...

regards
Steve
 
Ad

Advertisements

R

Rocco Moretti

Alex said:
I like the general idea but not your formula. If the most junior team
member was 1 month out of school, would it really be OK for the
supervisor to be somebody who graduated 3 months ago?-)

FWIW, when I read it, I took "experience" as a semi-qualitative measure,
more than just "time since graduation."

Hence someone out of school only three months could have more
"experience", than someone who has worked for ten years, if the recent
grad has been heavily involved in pre-graduation projects (e.g. open
source), or if the ten-year veteran has done nothing constructive with
his time, besides raking in a paycheck.
 
T

The Eternal Squire

And me, I'm a 15 to 20 year veteran, I started *very* young....

I think Alex has it right. Too many of us elders are like he says.. I
try not to be, to the point where I accepted a promotion from my
captain (wife) from chief engineer of the family to executive officer
(as in, I am now my daughter's full time dad).

But is there anything that people really need in Python open source
that people would accept from an old hand like me? Or am I still
persona non grata for making a butthead of myself during Pycon 2005
(for which I apologize and beg forgiveness) for trying to evangelize
the concept of making None callable?

At the time, I had broncialitis/pneumonia and temperatures averaging
102 and peaking at 104 during all the time I was there. But I wasn't
going to let anything short of death itself prevent me from delivering
my paper. Of course, I please deleriousness (or is it Deloriousness)
during the rest of the time. I was yucky, I admit it.

The Eternal Squire
 
A

Alex Martelli

Rocco Moretti said:
FWIW, when I read it, I took "experience" as a semi-qualitative measure,
more than just "time since graduation."

Hence someone out of school only three months could have more
"experience", than someone who has worked for ten years, if the recent
grad has been heavily involved in pre-graduation projects (e.g. open
source), or if the ten-year veteran has done nothing constructive with
his time, besides raking in a paycheck.

Sure -- measure "experience" in whatever units you like, e.g., number of
function points designed, coded, tested and debugged in one's lifetime;
my (meant-to-be-funny but not unfounded...;-) quip still stands -- the
concept that the cat herder (==supervisor of developers) should ideally
be (among other things) a very experienced developer is (IMHO) quite
sound, but it's also quite inappropriate to gauge that in terms of a
ratio with the most junior team-member's experience (which might be very
low, in whatever units of measure one might like to use).


Alex
 
Ad

Advertisements

T

The Eternal Squire

Well, I admit the remark was off the cuff because I was thinking of
conventional waterfall development cycles in the aerospace industry....
in that context someone who wasn't there during an entire development
cycle is not even a junior member, but is rather a recruit under
training to begin actually contributing to the next project.

I would call someone who survived all phases of a single
design-code-test-peerreview cycle (about 2 years) to be junior, and
someone with less experience that that as a recruit. On that basis,
the lead should have 3 design cycles or 6 years experience. The lead
does not need to be the master designer on the project, but it helps a
lot when that happens.

The Eternal Squire
 

Top