The C++ Programming Language, 4th Ed.

J

Jorgen Grahn

Am 02.08.2013 10:55, schrieb Jorgen Grahn:


Not as a tutorial.

A tutorial? Not TC++PL. God, no! It was never the intention. I see
it more as an overview of the language, which at the same time reveals
how Stroustrup thinks it should be used.

I admit I also don't think of it as a reference. Often when I try to
use it as one, I lose. It's a bit too terse.

The 3rd edition's chapters on life and survival as a programmer are
great, but I think they were cut down for the 4th ed.

I haven't read his introduction to programming book, so I can't
comment on that one.

The "Design and Evolution" book is very nice. It's more of a biography
over C++ as a project than anything else.

/Jorgen
 
Ö

Öö Tiib

I don't think he was expressing such confusion.

Wasn't he by saying "copying ideas and information"? Records of information
can be copyrighted. Ideas can not be copyrighted. Some ideas can be
(in some fields for limited time that differ from country to country)
patented as inventions in exchange for public disclosure of the ideas
by authors. So authors themselves have to publish the patented ideas to
patent those. Even the word "patent" comes from the Latin patere, which
means "to lay open". Something here might be is indeed indicating
confusion.
 
G

Gerhard Fiedler

Qu0ll said:
"David Brown" wrote in message


Arguments put forward by yourself and others in this thread reek of
an attempt to justify what is immoral and utterly reprehensible
behaviour.

Whether the perpetrator ever sees the inside of a prison cell is
completely irrelevant to the fact that deliberately depriving people
of their legitimate right to an income in an apparent attempt to
amplify their own sense of significance is beyond being defensible.

IMO there are three concepts that are mixed often in this context, and
this discussion is no exception.

There is the legality of an action. This depends on the laws governing
the action. Some actions that violate a copyright in one place at one
time don't do so (didn't do so, won't do so) in another place at another
time.

There is the morality of an action. I contend that there is enough proof
that there is no universally valid concept of morality. Even so
seemingly universal and basic moral imperatives like "you shall not
kill" have their exception clauses: unless it's in self defense, unless
it's for the good of the nation, unless it's to defend one's religion,
.... -- which of course are then subject to individual judgment and far
from universally accepted in their individual judgment. Copyright is
even worse -- I'd say there is nothing universally moral about
copyright. (There are people who consider not sharing whatever you own
greedy and immoral, for example. For them, copyright is in its essence
immoral.)

Then there's the notion that there's some morality in sticking to legal
actions. Well... there were enough examples in history that show that
what many people consider the moral thing to do was illegal. War is
pretty much always illegal (at least by the legal standards of the
invaded country). So what's an invading soldier to do -- follow the law
of his land (that presumably govern his body) or follow the law of the
place where he is (which is, by general convention, the law that governs
his actions)? Or, probably closer to home for most, driving faster than
the speed limit is violating a law. (The traffic code is a law.) I'm
pretty sure there's a large majority that doesn't think there's anything
immoral about driving a bit faster than the speed limit.


So... there doesn't seem to be much of a universal moral at all, much
less something that's universally moral about copyright. But of course,
copyright is a legal concept in most if not all countries -- but again
of course quite differently seen in different countries, as legal
concept and as legal reality.

The legal concept of copyright also isn't that old. Originally, the idea
probably was that copyright helps the creators of original works to make
money from their works. It maybe still does, but reality is that it
helps to a much greater degree others (not the creators) to make money
from original works that they didn't make. And that's the real rub here.
It is far from clear whether there aren't other, more efficient ways to
deal with original works or not; there just isn't much empirical data to
work from, on both ends of the divide.

It's somewhat ironic that the origins of the copyright were to counter
the monopoly of the printing industry, whereas today one of its main
effects is maintaining the oligopoly of the big content distribution
corporations.

Interesting in this context is also
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=489762

Gerhard
 
B

Bo Persson

Qu0ll skrev 2013-08-23 09:11:
"Chris Vine" wrote in message


Spot on. I am sure even those floundering around trying to find legal
loopholes and ludicrous justifications know in their own hearts that
such acts are not only immoral but completely unlawful.

There can be no justification for such a malicious act and if such an
act is not "technically" a felony then that says more about the failings
of the justice system than anything meritorious about the act itself.

In my opinion, the idiots who encourage such behaviour by pointing out
that it *may* not actually be a bona fide crime are only marginally
better than the pest/troll/tool/moron who posted the original links.

We are not encouraging it, just pointing out that it is not theft.

It is not even criminal to publish copyrighted work on the internet (or
elsewhere), it just requires a permission from the copyright owner.
Often that involves paying the owner for the permission, but not always.

Linux is an example of copyrighted material that is published without
paying the copyright owner.


Bo Persson
 
Ö

Öö Tiib

"David Brown" wrote in message


You're obviously very attached to this little line but it is utter fallacy.
I have "zero tolerance" for lots of things like rape, murder etc. and it
never involves "zero thought".

It is fallacy only if to call plain emotions as "thoughts".

Thinking involves analyzing the facts. Facts are that copyright is enforced
as a civil matter in most countries, only some jurisdictions do apply
criminal sanctions. Similarly some jurisdictions apply criminal sanctions
for homosexual relations. As contrast all jurisdictions apply criminal
sanctions for rape or murder.
The only grey area here is to the degree of criminality of the OP's action
and while this is not up to me decide, I am entitled to express my opinion.

Some manage to make valid opinion to sound like utter nonsense.
However, there is *no* grey area on the degree of moral culpability however
and absolutely *no* way to justify it.

Most people agree that what OP did was immoral. Most people avoid comparing
it with rape or murder however because that makes their opinion to sound
like nonsense.
 
Ö

Öö Tiib

"Öö Tiib" wrote in message


Most people would have noticed that I was discussing the notion of *zero
tolerance* as I apply it in a number of areas and that this was not in any
way comparing the OP's *actions* to these crimes.

Yes but saying things like "I apply zero tolerance to rape, murder and
copyright infringement" makes most people to laugh and to think that
you are joking anyway.
 
G

Geoff

In law there are several levels of "violation".

Customs, taboos:
Violating these involve various degrees of social ostracism. Violating
some taboos (incest, pedophilia, necrophilia), can be felonies.

Infractions:
Speeding, public intoxication, violators usually receive a summons and
a monetary fine.

Torts:
These are civil violations, personal injury due to negligence,
copyright violation, breach of contract, etc. These are causes of
civil suits in public courts, essentially the state has sanctioned the
brining of a case between two people or corporate entities that may
or may not have involved a crime of the level or misdemeanor or
felony.

CRIMES:

Misdemeanors:
Resisting arrest (I love that one), battery, assault, these involve
potential detention, substantial fines, bail.

Felonies:
Rape, incest, murder, burglary, theft. All involve substantial
monetary and or jail/prison time and bailment.


Copyright violation is not a crime, it's a civil tort, just like
patent and trademark violation. The state is only involved to the
extent of establishing priority and determining ownership and
providing enforcement of court orders.
 
G

Gerhard Fiedler

"David Brown" wrote in message


You're obviously very attached to this little line but it is utter
fallacy. I have "zero tolerance" for lots of things like rape, murder
etc. and it never involves "zero thought".

Probably not for all cases of murder, though -- or only for the legal
definition of 'murder', which is something quite fickle and changes with
time and place -- and gets us out of the seemingly clear lines of
morality into the obviously grey area of legality.

The thing is that once you start thinking about it, it's not really that
simple as simple rhetoric makes it sound.

Gerhard
 
L

Lynn McGuire

I don't care whether you were making value judgements or not. Your
arguments are just bogus, the original poster's actions were plainly
immoral and wrong, and your justifications are absurd.

Chris

+1

Lynn
 
Ö

Öö Tiib

However, just because I apply zero tolerance to a whole range of actions
should not be so amusing in itself. I am sure if you examine your own
morality code you will find you do exactly the same thing.

Why? I apply zero tolerance to nothing. I see zero tolerance to almost
every act of questionable morality grotesque, difficult to believe
surprising and amusing.

The first purpose of laws is to enforce the idiots to behave, secondary
purpose is to compensate the possible victims of acts of such idiots. Whole
purpose is to improve quality of life of all members of society. Weighting
danger to society of act involves thinking.

Zero tolerance involves zero thinking of that kind and that results with
Finnish police harassing 9 year old girl for downloading material that can
be legitimately downloaded for free from other source. In other words it
often makes our society the very dunghill that it is. I do not understand
why you are so proud of it.
 
G

Gerhard Fiedler

Chris said:
You are playing with words. I am not encouraging you, just pointing
out it is morally wrong whether it is a criminal offence or not.

Lots of people here seem to assume that there is a given definition of
what's "morally right" or "morally wrong". But nobody really has brought
any evidence forth that this is in fact so. My suspicion is that
whenever somebody wants to increase the weight of their own opinion,
they call their own opinion "moral".

"Moral" is not a fact; it's an opinion.

Gerhard
 
G

Gerhard Fiedler

Chris said:
You are playing with words. I am not encouraging you, just pointing
out it is morally wrong whether it is a criminal offence or not.

If you want to go there, they probably weren't any more morally wrong
than an ad for the sale of a hammer. Just because the hammer may be used
to do something illegal doesn't necessarily make the sale of the hammer
illegal. Or immoral.

Even though current copyright legislation in many countries makes it
illegal, I don't see anything morally wrong in downloading and using an
electronic copy of a book that I have bought in paper form.

Gerhard
 
I

Ike Naar

I don't care whether you were making value judgements or not. Your
arguments are just bogus, the original poster's actions were plainly
immoral and wrong, and your justifications are absurd.

There are countries where the price of the book we're talking about
is worth a month's income. For a student in such a country, a legal
copy of the book would be simply unaffordable.
Do you think it's morally okay (for the publisher) to charge that much
for educational material?
Do you think it's morally wrong (for the student) to use an illegal copy
if they can't afford a legal copy?
Would you have the same thoughts if you were a student in such a country?
 

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