The "new age" of html?

R

richard

As you may know, I am a big big fan of Basic. Even more so now with
the advent of "liberty basic". www.libertybasic.com

Carl Gundel, the author has taken his version of basic into the next
level and is now competing with php, javascript, python and asp.

With minimal knowledge of html and basic, you can create your own
website using basic right on your PC. I plan on converting my oldies
site using this method. As it has the capability of utilizing a simple
database I can create tables of information on the page without the
need of reloading the page, iframes or division swapping.

Anyone use it now or interested?

www.runbasic.com
 
J

Jani

As you may know, I am a big big fan of Basic. Even more so now with
the advent of "liberty basic".www.libertybasic.com

Carl Gundel, the author has taken his version of basic into the next
level and is now competing with php, javascript, python and asp.

With minimal knowledge of html and basic, you can create your own
website using basic right on your PC. I plan on converting my oldies
site using this method. As it has the capability of utilizing a simple
database I can create tables of information on the page without the
need of reloading the page, iframes or division swapping.

Anyone use it now or interested?

www.runbasic.com


Anything which is fun should be done! (o;
 
C

Chris F.A. Johnson

As you may know, I am a big big fan of Basic. Even more so now with
the advent of "liberty basic". www.libertybasic.com

Carl Gundel, the author has taken his version of basic into the next
level and is now competing with php, javascript, python and asp.

With minimal knowledge of html and basic, you can create your own
website using basic right on your PC.

I can do that with any text editor.
I plan on converting my oldies site using this method. As it has the
capability of utilizing a simple database I can create tables of
information on the page without the need of reloading the page,
iframes or division swapping.

Anyone use it now or interested?

No, it will not run on my system.
 
J

Jani

Jani said:
richard wrote:

Most people don't need any sort of programming language for the web.
plain old HTML webpages work fine for most people.

If you want something to run on a standard Apache or IIS server
of the type you get when you buy hosting, it won't have Runbasic
available. My hosting provider gives me PHP, Perl, Python, C,
C++, Tcl, CGI and all the standard Apahce features.  No Runbasic.

If you are willing to buy a dedicated server or virtual server,
you can run what you like, but PoweBASIC is only slightly more
expensive that Runbasic, and is far more powerful and efficient.
Even so, Python is usually a better choice thatn either Runbasic
or PowerBASIC for web applications.  

None of these are competitors for javascript or Java, which run
on the client, not the server.  

I do not believe your claim that Runbasic has "the capability of
utilizing a simple [which] can create tables of information on
the page without the need of reloading the page, iframes or division
swapping."  

hm... ya... But anyway... The massive use of IP addresses will
supposed to be integrated into normal electronic devices (like fridge,
garage door, DVD recorder, mobile phone, fish tank, sun shield).
So maybe the browser will loose its value as an interface
___EYES2SCREEN___. You simply take your USB jack to your office or to
the weekend house outside in the village or the data will be
synchronize over the provider.

If you miss a real sense in what I am writing... I only want to
express that e.g. Java was invented for white goods and that DW is not
yet a CSS - Editor, which you can use as a newbie to CSS. So the idea
to cope with HTML in a "new" way (like richard say ["new age"]) is
quite well while other difficult people are not able to find together
a common solution.

I think e.g. it would be a great thing to have a huge book shelf and
on your webshop your customer can view it with the webcam. Sometimes
all those forms and database searching results need strong eyes. And
you get tired. You miss something old fashioned maybe. A snooty-nosed
little upstart needs a real shop to browse some time for what he is
looking for. He want to sit down into his big snoozle room, having a
cool drink in hot summernight and viewing all those books of my shop
projected in his hologram.

So you can not forget the military aspect when any shit (ups... lets
say "poison") turns into nectar.
 
L

libbasic

Most people don't need any sort of programming language for the web.
plain old HTML webpages work fine for most people.

That's fair, and perhaps Run BASIC isn't really on topic for this
group except that HTML can be a gateway to real programming, and Run
BASIC is a perfectly good next step.
If you want something to run on a standard Apache or IIS server
of the type you get when you buy hosting, it won't have Runbasic
available. My hosting provider gives me PHP, Perl, Python, C,
C++, Tcl, CGI and all the standard Apahce features.  No Runbasic.

Well, not yet anyways. ;-) However you can download Run BASIC for
free and try it out on your own computer. Some of our users like the
free version. Some actually host their own server from home, and some
use the runbasicnet.com hosting service.
If you are willing to buy a dedicated server or virtual server,
you can run what you like, but PoweBASIC is only slightly more
expensive that Runbasic, and is far more powerful and efficient.

PowerBASIC is a very nice product, and I have used it for some of my
own projects. It isn't a web development system so it may be more
efficient at something, but Run BASIC is more efficient for web
development.
Even so, Python is usually a better choice thatn either Runbasic
or PowerBASIC for web applications.  

What is your justification for saying this? If someone asks which
tool is better for a given job the answer is almost always "It
depends." Run BASIC is specifically designed for building and hosting
web apps, and it is designed to be very easy for the beginner.
Several of our customers are very enthusiastically embracing Run BASIC
after coming from more popular options like PHP.
None of these are competitors for javascript or Java, which run
on the client, not the server.  

I do not believe your claim that Runbasic has "the capability of
utilizing a simple [which] can create tables of information on
the page without the need of reloading the page, iframes or division
swapping."  - Hide quoted text -

I'm not quite sure what Richard meant by this. What Run BASIC does
well is simplify web development. It includes a lot of useful
capabilities in a single install, and it hides complexity behind a
simple interface.

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 
R

richard

Most people don't need any sort of programming language for the web.
plain old HTML webpages work fine for most people.

That's fair, and perhaps Run BASIC isn't really on topic for this
group except that HTML can be a gateway to real programming, and Run
BASIC is a perfectly good next step.
If you want something to run on a standard Apache or IIS server
of the type you get when you buy hosting, it won't have Runbasic
available. My hosting provider gives me PHP, Perl, Python, C,
C++, Tcl, CGI and all the standard Apahce features.  No Runbasic.

Well, not yet anyways. ;-) However you can download Run BASIC for
free and try it out on your own computer. Some of our users like the
free version. Some actually host their own server from home, and some
use the runbasicnet.com hosting service.
If you are willing to buy a dedicated server or virtual server,
you can run what you like, but PoweBASIC is only slightly more
expensive that Runbasic, and is far more powerful and efficient.

PowerBASIC is a very nice product, and I have used it for some of my
own projects. It isn't a web development system so it may be more
efficient at something, but Run BASIC is more efficient for web
development.
Even so, Python is usually a better choice thatn either Runbasic
or PowerBASIC for web applications.  

What is your justification for saying this? If someone asks which
tool is better for a given job the answer is almost always "It
depends." Run BASIC is specifically designed for building and hosting
web apps, and it is designed to be very easy for the beginner.
Several of our customers are very enthusiastically embracing Run BASIC
after coming from more popular options like PHP.
None of these are competitors for javascript or Java, which run
on the client, not the server.  

I do not believe your claim that Runbasic has "the capability of
utilizing a simple [which] can create tables of information on
the page without the need of reloading the page, iframes or division
swapping."  - Hide quoted text -

I'm not quite sure what Richard meant by this. What Run BASIC does
well is simplify web development. It includes a lot of useful
capabilities in a single install, and it hides complexity behind a
simple interface.

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com


Allow me to introduce y'all to the author of "run basic".
As well as "Liberty Basic".
If I am wrong about how runbasic will implement my ideas, feel free to
correct me carl.

I had made a comment on the LB board about being able to create tables
that would magically be recreated "on the fly" rather than with the
standard need for html to swap divisions or use iframes. Alyce
responded graphically that it could.

Take for example, your "firstTable" project in the free edition and
add that to the "button" command example. Click button one shows table
one, clicking button two shows table two. Without leaving the page.
Right?
 
L

libbasic

That's fair, and perhaps Run BASIC isn't really on topic for this
group except that HTML can be a gateway to real programming, and Run
BASIC is a perfectly good next step.
Well, not yet anyways.  ;-)  However you can download Run BASIC for
free and try it out on your own computer.  Some of our users like the
free version.  Some actually host their own server from home, and some
use the runbasicnet.com hosting service.
PowerBASIC is a very nice product, and I have used it for some of my
own projects.  It isn't a web development system so it may be more
efficient at something, but Run BASIC is more efficient for web
development.
What is your justification for saying this?  If someone asks which
tool is better for a given job the answer is almost always "It
depends."  Run BASIC is specifically designed for building and hosting
web apps, and it is designed to be very easy for the beginner.
Several of our customers are very enthusiastically embracing Run BASIC
after coming from more popular options like PHP.
None of these are competitors for javascript or Java, which run
on the client, not the server.  
I do not believe your claim that Runbasic has "the capability of
utilizing a simple [which] can create tables of information on
the page without the need of reloading the page, iframes or division
swapping."  - Hide quoted text -
I'm not quite sure what Richard meant by this.  What Run BASIC does
well is simplify web development.  It includes a lot of useful
capabilities in a single install, and it hides complexity behind a
simple interface.

Allow me to introduce y'all to the author of "run basic".
As well as "Liberty Basic".
If I am wrong about how runbasic will implement my ideas, feel free to
correct me carl.

I had made a comment on the LB board about being able to create tables
that would magically be recreated "on the fly" rather than with the
standard need for html to swap divisions or use iframes. Alyce
responded graphically that it could.

Take for example, your "firstTable" project in the free edition and
add that to the "button" command example. Click button one shows table
one, clicking button two shows table two. Without leaving the page.
Right?- Hide quoted text -

Probably the best way to explain this is that Run BASIC manages the
web page for you. You don't need to regenerate the page from scratch
each time. The HTML is generated for you, but you can inject any
additional markup you might want. It's hard to explain, so I'd
recommend that interested readers just go and watch the videos of Run
BASIC in use.

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Ben said:
But don't things like Perl, Python, Tcl, Ruby come with tons of
libraries for doing everything you could ever want to do for web
programming?

Perl:

#!/usr/bin/perl -w
use strict;
use CGI qw:)standard -no_xhtml);

print header,html(head(title('Foo')),body(h1('A Simple Page'),p('This is
pretty simple!')));
 
R

richard

I have looked at Run BASIC a lot more closely, and I wish to
modify and revise my stated opinion of it vs. other languages.

The other languages I mentioned (PowerBASIC, Python) as well
as another fine product that I missed (FreeBASIC) are all fine
products, but they are general-purpose tools, while Run BASIC
is optimized for web programming (The author of Run BASIC has
a general purpose tool as well, Liberty BASIC).

By being purpose-built for web programming, Run Basic does
a bunch of stuff automatically that I would have to program
in with a more general purpose language.

But don't things like Perl, Python, Tcl, Ruby come with tons of
libraries for doing everything you could ever want to do for web
programming?

Whether you build things into the language itself or put them in
libraries usually doesn't make much difference (and the distinction is
quite blurred anyway for some languages, e.g. Tcl).
So, upon reflection,
Run BASIC is a better tool for person who wants to do web
programming with the simplicity of a BASIC language.
[ http://www.runbasic.com/ ].

A couple of comments for Carl Gundel:

your FAQ says this:

Q - Can I use Run BASIC to create applications that work with
GoDaddy or other webhosting companies?

A - You will need to ask your webhosting company if they permit
the installation of custom software like Run BASIC.

You might wish to mention that even if a hosting company does not
allow you to install Run BASIC on their servers, they may offer
virtual servers (you get an entire operating system and web server
running on a virtual machine) that let you run anything you wish.

Why not just implement the Run BASIC interpreter in Perl? Then it could
run on any server that lets you run Perl.


BASIC is by far a simpler language to understand. In these newer
versions Carl has made it so that most modern needs are easily met and
conform to the BASIC outline.

If you download the free version and try out a few of the included
sample projects, you'll quickly see how simple it is to learn.
You know what it takes to do a simplye "button" right?
In run basic all you do is define the button with a few attributes and
you're done.
The publishing of the page takes care of actual coding.
 
C

Chris F.A. Johnson

On 2009-01-05, richard wrote:
....
BASIC is by far a simpler language to understand. In these newer
versions Carl has made it so that most modern needs are easily met and
conform to the BASIC outline.

If you download the free version and try out a few of the included
sample projects, you'll quickly see how simple it is to learn.
You know what it takes to do a simplye "button" right?
In run basic all you do is define the button with a few attributes and
you're done.

It does look interesting, but if even the author of the language
cannot code without using goto, it's far too primitive for real
programming.
 
L

libbasic

   It does look interesting, but if even the author of the language
   cannot code without using goto, it's far too primitive for real
   programming.

Run BASIC supports structured programming. GOTO is strictly optional
but hey, this is BASIC right? ;-)

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 
A

Andy Dingley

   I can do that with any text editor.

I can't. I'm increasingly finding that I cannot build my sites quickly
enough, or flexibly enough, in static HTML. Coding from scratch is
almost never the answer to anything. Even CMS has never really
delivered on its promises, nor have portal platforms like Zope. More
and more I'm finding that the "right" level of abstraction for
"Getting the job done" is a powerful wiki, by which I mean MediaWiki
(same one behind Wikipedia).

This is just one opinion, from a corner of the world concerned with
commercial in-house intranets broadly used for "knowledge
sharing"(sic). I'd be interested in others' comments.
 
L

libbasic

I can't. I'm increasingly finding that I cannot build my sites quickly
enough, or flexibly enough, in static HTML. Coding from scratch is
almost never the answer to anything. Even CMS has never really
delivered on its promises, nor have portal platforms like Zope. More
and more I'm finding that the "right" level of abstraction for
"Getting the job done" is a powerful wiki, by which I mean MediaWiki
(same one behind Wikipedia).

I'm sure that it depends on the sorts of problems you're trying to
solve. For example a friend of mine needed to create an outline to
track project dependencies. He's not really a programmer so he
decided to do this with a wiki. The trouble is that it isn't
automated enough and it isn't smart enough. Sometimes you really do
need an application and not just a document.
This is just one opinion, from a corner of the world concerned with
commercial in-house intranets broadly used for "knowledge
sharing"(sic). I'd be interested in others' comments.

Wikis are great for knowledge sharing but they can suffer the same
feature creep as other platforms. I built a wiki using Run BASIC that
is used to host a local community website. The fellow who runs the
site asks for more interactive features. It's not too hard to give
him what he wants because I have the source code. So when does this
system stop being a wiki and start being a CMS? The line between the
two moves and gets blurrier.

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 
L

libbasic

But don't things like Perl, Python, Tcl, Ruby come with tons of
libraries for doing everything you could ever want to do for web
programming?

Whether you build things into the language itself or put them in
libraries usually doesn't make much difference (and the distinction is
quite blurred anyway for some languages, e.g. Tcl).

It's not just a matter of building things into the language. The
language is itself built into a web appserver. All the session, state
and control flow related stuff is taken care of for you
transparently. Did you watch the videos on the Run BASIC home page?
Why not just implement the Run BASIC interpreter in Perl? Then it could
run on any server that lets you run Perl.

You could implement the language in Perl and it might even be useful
for something, but that wouldn't buy you the integration that Run
BASIC does. I'm not trying to say that Run BASIC is better than Perl
or other languages, just different enough to be better for some
projects and to be appealing to some people.

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 
L

libbasic

But I'm not sure that many of the 80's home-computer basickers really
took to VB because it was BASIC. And I don't think BASIC is per se any
easier for the would-be programmer to understand than say Python. Most
people teach their kids Python these days, but it's still the first
language of choice for many "grown-up" programmers too.

Your point is?

Python is a fine language, but in no way does that fact diminish BASIC
as a language choice. The original post mentioned Run BASIC
enthusiastically as a web language. He wasn't plugging BASIC for its
own sake. Run BASIC as a web language is worth mentioning because it
is not a "me too" offering. It does things in an interestingly
different way.

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 
R

richard

On 2009-01-05, richard wrote:
...

It does look interesting, but if even the author of the language
cannot code without using goto, it's far too primitive for real
programming.


Several items are left overs from the original BASIC such as goto.
In the original BASIC line numbering was mandatory. Which made "goto"
an invaluable tool.
e.g. If a=b then goto 100.
Now you would see if a=b then [label]. Line numbers are meaningless.

Years ago in the original BASIC, I had written a sort routine.
Now that same sort routine is a simple command.

I've written numerous programs and I must say, Liberty Basic is one
hell of a speed demon, specially on an AMD processor.
 
L

libbasic

Well it's interesting that a good kid's language turns out to be just a
good language generally.

And the other point is, why use BASIC? It was a perfect choice on the
80s home computer, but what is there to recommend it today?

-Modern BASIC is a structured language (and I don't mean VB.Net which
can hardly be called BASIC)
-It's great for small scale or personal projects
-There are a lot of resources for it
-A lot of people like it

I think that one really interesting cultural aspect of BASIC is that
there are literally hundreds of implementations of it. I think it's
great that so many creative people are so involved in the BASIC
community. The evolution of the language isn't decided by committee.
Look at the direction that Microsoft has applied to VB, or consider
where Sun has taken Java. :-/
I have nothing against Run BASIC. It does look interesting and
different and even quite fun.

Thanks. I'm eager to see where we can take it. ;-)

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 
L

libbasic

On Mon, 05 Jan 2009 02:43:13 +0000, "Chris F.A. Johnson"
Several items are left overs from the original BASIC such as goto.
In the original BASIC line numbering was mandatory. Which made "goto"
an invaluable tool.
e.g. If a=b then goto 100.
Now you would see if a=b then [label].

But that's essentially the same as "if a=b then goto label". The
objection to goto has nothing to do with line numbers-- it's more a fear
of spaghetti and unstructured programming.

So long as you have at least GOSUB in BASIC, and preferably named
subroutines with locals and arguments (which it looks like Liberty Basic
does have) then I would say it supports structured programming perfectly
well.
Line numbers are meaningless.

Line numbers were as much a part of the text-editing environment on the
old home computers as they were part of the language. Later BASICs just
used labels instead.

It's true and sometimes I still meet people who are uncomfortable
unless their BASIC can use line numbers. Line numbers and GOTO
weren't really much of a problem when you only had 4K RAM. It was
harder to get in trouble. ;-) Later on QBasic introduced structured
programming to BASIC coders and there was no looking back.

A long, long time ago I wrote a preprocessor for Microsoft BASIC which
allowed me to avoid using line numbers. This was just an inkling
towards writing a full blown BASIC compiler (in Smalltalk).

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 
L

libbasic

One question I have: does Liberty BASIC have builtin resizeable lists
and dictionaries, that can be nested inside each other?

e.g. in Python

    s = {"cat" : ["foo, "bar", [0, 7]], "dog" : 2, "mouse" : {"k" : (1, 2)}}

So s["cat"][2][1] has the value 7 and so on. But you can change and
extend everything at any time.

Or do you still have to do things like:

DIM A(100)
to create an array, which is then exactly 100 elements long for all
time?

Liberty BASIC still uses DIM as you say but I am eager to do something
about that. Evolving languages can be tricky though because you don't
necessarily want to just graft syntax on from other languages because
then you end up with a Frankenstein BASIC.

I'm certainly open to suggestions.
Because I think it's this kind of thing that's responsible for the most
significant "productivity" differences between most languages these
days.

Have you ever programmed in Smalltalk? Most of the language is
written in itself. It's amazingly clean.
Java isn't an implementation of BASIC!

Of course, but I was trying to make the point about what happens when
one authority controls everything about a language's evolution. Sun
has not made good decisions. Only Sun is allowed to make a language
and call it Java. Microsoft wanted to improve Java but they weren't
allowed to so they call their version C#. No comment on whether it is
an improvement.

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 
L

libbasic

Yes you want to keep the syntax in the general style of BASIC. Syntax is
not really important, and the main thing is to keep it easy to learn and
intuitive.

I've always added things reluctantly because I don't want it to grow
out of control. Run BASIC has some very simple OO ideas in it. BASIC
with objects is a little bit like oil and water so what I added needed
to be very lightweight. I think it works pretty well but I bet it
could be done better.
I'm certainly open to suggestions.

I suppose the simplest would be DIM A(auto), which makes A like an
ECMAScript array: i.e. you can index it with numbers, and just use
whatever numbers you like, or with strings or any other hashable thing.

DIM A(auto);
A[0] = 10;
A[1] = 20;
A[100] = "foo";
A["cat"] = "bar";

that kind of thing. I'm not sure how "typed" your BASIC is-- in most
versions I used an array was either of numbers or of strings. But you
probably want arrays-of-anything, perhaps as well as the single-type
ones.

The hashset idea is definitely tops on my list, so what you're
describing would fit.
Then you'd need a couple of new kinds of for loop to pick out all the
named or numbered members etc.

Yeah, or something.
Alternatively, if you add Objects to the language (you may already have
done this), then people can just use Objects as dictionaries. All you
really need then is an "object literal" syntax or initializer--
{key:value, ...} like Perl/Python/ECMAScript all have.

Or maybe this is all just making it too complicated :)

It gets there pretty quickly, right? ;-)
No, but I have read a couple of papers about Smalltalk and it does look
interesting.

Check out the papers at vpri.org and especially read their proposal to
the National Science Foundation. These are the people who invented
Smalltalk and they're still trying to invent the future.

-Carl Gundel
http://www.runbasic.com
 

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