ValueFirst "FAME" Awards for programmers

[Ramon F Herrera]

I don't have a site "geek for hire"

My mistake. But the confusion was caused by your use of the term "Geek-
for-hire" as there is indeed a site with that name.

In that case the question becomes: why would I hire you without first
considering 200,000 potential programmers? Most of those people are
probably hungrier (in the different meanings of the word) than you. A
dollar buys a lot of code in those underdeveloped countries.

I don't own or operate a website
like Rent-A-Coder, and I'm not competing with you. (So you're Rent-a-Coder?
That would explain your coming in here, shilling for the site.)

Got a recommendation for a site better than RAC? Let's hear about it.
I have been known to change my mind. Like I said: I am simply using
RAC as an example. In fact, as a firm believer in *competition* (did I
say that already?) I would like to see other sites competing with RAC.

Nobody wants RAC to become the Microsoft of the Programmers-for-Hire
marketplace.

-Ramon

ps: you obviously chose not to take Econ 101.

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

Ramon F Herrera wrote :






You are starting to sound a bit desperate.

Are you SURE you are not affiliated with the site?

I am completely sure. In fact, one day I wrote to them telling them
that the site was so slow (they were growing very rapidly and had to
switch Internet providers and hardware platforms several times) that
they should base it on Linux. Advice which they promptly ignored.
There are only two jobs that you cannot post in RAC, BTW:

- A site clone of RAC.
- Decrypting, reverse engineering, breaking copy protection schemes,
etc.

Okay, let's criticize them, then. One thing I hate is that coders make
a list of their skills so they get lots of hits. Early on, coders
listed a few, realistic skills on their resumes. Some of the coders
actually gang together (ahh, they discovered specialization already!):
one knows Photoshop, one knows networking, they have a Windows guru,
then the open source expert, etc. so they can widen the spectrum of
jobs. Cast a wider net, if you will. That is fine and dandy. The only
problem is that now many of them you copy & pasted the huge resumes
and they claim they have every conceivable skill know to man. If I
were RAC (I AM USING RAC JUST AS AN EXAMPLE, because they are the only
ones I know of, did I say that already?) I would figure out a way to
penalize such know-it-all (unless they *really* know it all!).

There's more to be written (and I will, you can count on that).

-Ramon

 

[Lew]

There is a point in a programmer's life when s/he arrives to the
realization that s/he will not be able to write all the software that
s/he can imagine.

All this "s/he" reference makes me think you're talking about a cross-dresser
or a transsexual. Just go with the singular "they" as English writers and
speakers have done for nigh on seven centuries when you want to use a
gender-neutral personal pronoun. When anyone I know is talking about someone
unknown, that's what they do.

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

All this "s/he" reference makes me think you're talking about a cross-dresser
or a transsexual. Just go with the singular "they" as English writers and
speakers have done for nigh on seven centuries when you want to use a
gender-neutral personal pronoun. When anyone I know is talking about someone
unknown, that's what they do.

Many folks on alt.english.usage or alt.usage.english, as well as book
authors would disagree with such form. The topic has been discussed
there. Some writers simply say "she". I am sure you & I will not solve
that shortcoming of the English language.

The one that I hate the most is the lack of a plural "you". In the
south they say "youse", which sounds funny. Then there's "you
all" (y'all), "you guys", "you people".

I suppose somebody will say I am a shill for the "Regularization of
the English Language League".

-RFH

 

[Steve Sobol]

In that case the question becomes: why would I hire you without first
considering 200,000 potential programmers? Most of those people are
probably hungrier (in the different meanings of the word) than you. A
dollar buys a lot of code in those underdeveloped countries.

So go hire them. If you're so cheap you're not willing to pay for more than
a couple bucks per hour, I don't want to do any work for you, anyhow.

The overhead is a lot lower in Asia. I'm not going to claim that all
of those programmers are incompetent, or even that some aren't better
than I am; that's simply not true. I would argue that I've probably
been doing programming/webdev for longer than most of them and I have
more experience, though. Plus, if there's a problem with your
programmer in India, you're pretty much screwed. Speaking as a US-based techie
and consumer, I'd rather deal with someone here and have recourse in case they
screw up.

 

[Lew]

Many folks on alt.english.usage or alt.usage.english, as well as book
authors would disagree with such form. The topic has been discussed
there. Some writers simply say "she". I am sure you & I will not solve
that shortcoming of the English language.

I'm aware of the controversy. Given that the use of singular "they" dates
back to the evolution of modern English from Middle English, and has been used
by such notable English writers as Shakespeare and Milton, not to mention that
it's colloquially accepted everywhere I use the language, I'm going to endorse
the singular "they" and rate the naysayers as prescriptivist dictators.

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

So go hire them. If you're so cheap you're not willing to pay for more than
a couple bucks per hour, I don't want to do any work for you, anyhow.

The overhead is a lot lower in Asia. I'm not going to claim that all
of those programmers are incompetent, or even that some aren't better
than I am; that's simply not true. I would argue that I've probably
been doing programming/webdev for longer than most of them and I have
more experience, though. Plus, if there's a problem with your
programmer in India, you're pretty much screwed. Speaking as a US-based techie
and consumer, I'd rather deal with someone here and have recourse in case they
screw up.

You are onto something, Steve. You (the guy trying to make a buck,
somebody who has programming expertise!) take your pick: For some jobs
you need the long term commitment, you need to have F2F meetings, and
somebody who speaks proper English. Let's say the hiring company makes
the decision to hire Steve Sobol Enterprises. They hire a *company*
(granted, it is a one man company) which presumably has the ability to
find programming labor. They don't want to go through the hassle of
going to RAC, they don't even have to know that RAC exists.

If you need something quick (but not necessarily dirty!) something
self-contained, some job that you are could do it but -heck! who has
the time?- or perhaps it is something that you simply are not
interested in learning... Then you use RAC (or similar). You have to
know what are the advantages and shortcoming of such resource.

Being a one-man-show (like Sobol Enterprises) vs. being able to grow
rapidly on demand makes a big difference for the company which hires
you.

-Ramon

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

I'm aware of the controversy. Given that the use of singular "they" dates
back to the evolution of modern English from Middle English, and has been used
by such notable English writers as Shakespeare and Milton, not to mention that
it's colloquially accepted everywhere I use the language, I'm going to endorse
the singular "they" and rate the naysayers as prescriptivist dictators.

Hey, you are preaching to the choir here. I am on the side of the
descriptivists. I went to a few lectures given by Noam Chomsky, and
even considered the idea of taking one of his courses. I may agree
with his ideas about linguistics, but not with his political beliefs.
He claims they are unrelated, but I doubt it.

-Ramon

 

[Andrew Thompson]

Ramon F Herrera wrote:
...

I am completely sure. ...
... If I
were RAC (I AM USING RAC JUST AS AN EXAMPLE, because they are the only
ones I know of, did I say that already?) ...

To summarise.
- This strand of the thread kicked off with my mention
of hiring contractors via. coder-for-hire sites - I specifically
mentioned e-lance.
- Ramon jumped in with the comparison to Rent-A-Coder, and
'RAC' quickly became not only a specific reference to the one site
that two people in the thread had used (Ramon/Steve), but also I
was thinking of it (and potentially using it) in a much wider and
more generic sense, to refer to *all* rent-a-coder style sites - since
it is a lot easier to understand than 'e-lance'.
- I was a fool to underestimate the type of reaction my latter
comments would provoke, and I deeply regret ever asking.
This is not the forum for it.

(hopefully) Java, anyone?

--
Andrew Thompson
http://www.physci.org/

Message posted via JavaKB.com
http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/java-general/200712/1

 

[Hunter Gratzner]

There is a point in a programmer's life when s/he arrives to the
realization that s/he will not be able to write all the software that
s/he can imagine.

That's not the point. This has nothing to do with realizing that one
can't write all the code, but all to do with bringing food on the
table.

A western programmer can't make enough money on RAC to bring food on
the table. This is a general trend in programming in the western
world. Since you are so keen on RAC being capitalism in action, it is
also capitalism in action when people no longer want to be programmers
but bean counters. I am entirely serious when I emotionless suggest
that people shouldn't get a CS degree, but an MBA. Programming in the
western world is a dying profession. Customers have sunken so low that
they accept all kinds of junk and low quality, as long as they get it
fast and cheap.

So be it.

No, because it doesn't include the web site based element. We need a
term like "portal" with which the reader immediately knows that we are
not talking about an Architecture Digest magazine's feature.

I don't care.

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

A have been a long time RAC user (just a -mostly- satisfied customer,
due mainly to the fact that I don't know the alternative sites). I am
not to sure of whether I should be proud of he fact that I have a
perfect score as a buyer: every single coder I have worked with has
given me a 10. A friend of mine says: "You will never be the next Bil
Gates or Steve Jobs, Ramon! Those two are notorious slave drivers, if
you are getting such high ratings you are doing something wrong".

Case 1:

I discovered Asterisk, the open source telephone system. Went to their
conference in LA, and complained that their software compiled properly
under RedHat, but not under Suse. The moderator pointed to the QA kids
and they sheepishly looked at the floor and said they only make sure
that the installation works properly under RedHat, and that's it.

Solution: I found a GNU guru in Rumania, through RAC. Told him to do
everything that he was told by the Asterisk developers ("I am not your
boss anymore"), and that I would pay (it was the most expensive
project I have posted, eight hundred clams) when said developers gave
approval for his work. The developers wrote to me saying that Mr.
Comaneci (?) did a great job and I paid. Now, Asterisk compiles and
builds under all Unixes known to man, but not on under Windows.
http://www.asterisk.org

I have installed Asterisk-based systems in several states and a couple
of countries but to this day I am completely clueless as to the
intricacies of configuring 'config', or 'autoconf'.

To be continued...

-Ramon

 

[Lew]

... people shouldn't get a CS degree, but an MBA. Programming in the
western world is a dying profession. Customers have sunken so low that
they accept all kinds of junk and low quality, as long as they get it
fast and cheap.

"Programming is a dying profession." "The sky is falling." "Doomsday in six
months." "Film at eleven."

There will always be a market for high-quality programmers, and people who buy
junk then discover they have junk will eventually target some high-quality
development for themselves, or suffer the consequences.

Not everyone has the chops to be an expensive programmer. Not everyone is
willing to pay for an expensive programmer. The question isn't whether
programming is a dying profession, because it isn't, but whether one oneself
is good enough to be expensive, and can find the customers who will appreciate
and pay for that value.

Programming will not die until we stop using computers. Even then, I predict,
the mentality that makes a good software engineer will make a good whatever
engineer, for the values of "whatever" that replace software in the world.
There is no evidence whatsoever that computer use will vanish or even decline
within the relevant future.

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

That's not the point. This has nothing to do with realizing that one
can't write all the code, but all to do with bringing food on the
table.

A western programmer can't make enough money on RAC to bring food on
the table. This is a general trend in programming in the western
world. Since you are so keen on RAC being capitalism in action, it is
also capitalism in action when people no longer want to be programmers
but bean counters. I am entirely serious when I emotionless suggest
that people shouldn't get a CS degree, but an MBA. Programming in the
western world is a dying profession. Customers have sunken so low that
they accept all kinds of junk and low quality, as long as they get it
fast and cheap.

So be it.


I don't care.

You are making a huge mistake in judgment, or actually: two mistakes.

(1) I would never, ever, recommend a Java NG reader to go to RAC as a
code seller. That would be a tragic and stupid move. Well, perhaps if
you find somebody who wants to hire you but they don't know you, both
parties can go to RAC and have a "private bid" in which you are the
one and only bidder invited. I am assuming that those brainy computer
science students (one of mine was finishing his Master's and writing
his PhD proposal in Turkey) don't hang around c.l.j.p and my
readership is mostly western programmers. RAC will simply serve as an
agent, paying you when the buyer approves. Granted, this is not the
common scenario. You are a big shot in such and such, the company is
not a cheap slave driver, they just want some intermediary agent which
provides a record of the deliverables.

(2) But your bigger mistake is that you assume that some pointy-haired
marketing guy can be a successful RAC user. You *have* to know
programming. You are like a professor there. Those kids are young, are
used to only program what they are told, such as homework. They have
the energy to crank out code, but they lack the *wisdom*, sometimes
they only know one programming language (but they know it very well),
in short: they don't understand the big picture.
(Hmm, I am not so sure that you do, either).

In a place like RAC, you need to have people skills. I cannot stress
that enough.

-Ramon

 

[Steve Sobol]

Being a one-man-show (like Sobol Enterprises) vs. being able to grow
rapidly on demand makes a big difference for the company which hires
you.

I'm not a one man show, although I do work for a small company, but your
point is well taken. There are advantages to going either way.

 

[Hunter Gratzner]

There will always be a market for high-quality programmers,

Ah, the classic stereotype "There will always be a market for high-
quality XYZ". But of what size will that market be? And who will have
access to it? Software development is becoming a commodity, available
at every corner in the world. The times when software development
needs the physical presence of the programmer close to the buyer and
to the development team are already long gone.

And RAC provides a glimpse into the future. RAC makes globalization
available to individual buyers, not just companies looking for cheap
outsourcing deals. RAC allows the outsourcing of even the tiniest of
programming tasks on a world-wide scale. At rates impossible to
undercut by western programmers.

You can see RAC as a prototype of what is about to happen in the
future. Not only with programming jobs, but with all kinds of jobs not
requiring physical presence of the producer, where there are either no
physical goods exchanged, or the cost for the exchange (transport)
does not outweigh the savings, and where the knowledge and skills to
perform the jobs are widely available.

and people who buy
junk then discover they have junk will eventually target some high-quality
development for themselves, or suffer the consequences.

The 99% or whatever takeup of Windows as the predominant operating
system says otherwise. People are so used to bad software they no
longer care.

And when it costs just 1/10 to get a task done (and you do find even
cheaper deals on RAC), then you can afford nine failures to get
something acceptable. It doesn't have to be good. It just has to
barely work, most of the time.

 

[Lew]

The 99% or whatever takeup of Windows as the predominant operating
system says otherwise. People are so used to bad software they no
longer care.

This begs the question of whether Windows is junk.

Now you have to show that Windows is junk in order to support your point. By
many standards it is a /tour de force/ of software quality. Even if not, it's
a long way to "junk". Perhaps so many people buy Windows because it does what
they want, and at a unit retail cost of between $ 100 - 200 US at a very low
price point. Maybe Windows is simply good enough for what people want. This
would not go far to support a point that "software development is dying".

Anyway, as with all binary bets, one of us will be proven correct by
circumstances. If circumstances prove me wrong I'll cheerfully admit it.

So far it seems otherwise, but past performance is no guarantee of future results.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I had never heard about that site, so I paid them a quick visit...

As I suspected, they are a copycat of the original, the one that has
been featured in the Wall Street Journal and BusinessWeek, Rent A
Coder.

http://www.rentacoder.com

e-lance has also been around for many years. I don't even know
which one of them are indeed the first.

Arne

 

[Gordon Beaton]

Here are some more examples of why this site is so great:

- You can get a degree without doing any of the work

"AKNMInc" is a loser, but want a CS degree anyway. That's easy, for
about $10-$20 per assignment (120 of them between March 2003 and Dec
2007). I wonder who sits his exams though?

- You can get a job based on someone else's qualifications

"qmriis" has been sent a skills assessment by a potential employer,
he "knows all the stuff" but is too lazy to bother. Too bad for the
employer if "qmriis" actually gets the job.

/gordon

--

 

[Daniel Pitts]

Here are some more examples of why this site is so great:

- You can get a degree without doing any of the work

"AKNMInc" is a loser, but want a CS degree anyway. That's easy, for
about $10-$20 per assignment (120 of them between March 2003 and Dec
2007). I wonder who sits his exams though?

- You can get a job based on someone else's qualifications

"qmriis" has been sent a skills assessment by a potential employer,
he "knows all the stuff" but is too lazy to bother. Too bad for the
employer if "qmriis" actually gets the job.

/gordon

--

I noticed gmriis too Ouch, well, thats what personal interviews are for.

 

[Daniel Pitts]

Here are some more examples of why this site is so great:

- You can get a degree without doing any of the work

"AKNMInc" is a loser, but want a CS degree anyway. That's easy, for
about $10-$20 per assignment (120 of them between March 2003 and Dec
2007). I wonder who sits his exams though?

- You can get a job based on someone else's qualifications

"qmriis" has been sent a skills assessment by a potential employer,
he "knows all the stuff" but is too lazy to bother. Too bad for the
employer if "qmriis" actually gets the job.

/gordon

--

Not to mention the one guy who seems to be creating a spam-site creator.
Basically, he wants a program that will create a web-page that seems
like actual content, but is just random gibberish. This *might* be a
homework assignment, but it could be an herbal enhancer link-builder.
Either way, they wanted to little to do that work