What does Guido want in a GUI toolkit for Python?

Discussion in 'Python' started by laplacian42, Jun 27, 2009.

  1. laplacian42

    laplacian42 Guest

    I just read a blog post of Guido's
    http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/06/ironpython-in-action-and-decline-of.html
    and notice that he doesn't comment on what he wants in a GUI toolkit
    for Python.

    I sorta' wish he'd just come out and say, "This is what I think would
    be suitable for a GUI toolkit for Python: ...". That way, someone
    could then just come along and implement it. (Or maybe he's said this
    and I missed it?)

    So, what *does* Guido want in a GUI toolkit for Python?
     
    laplacian42, Jun 27, 2009
    #1
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  2. So, what *does* Guido want in a GUI toolkit for Python?

    I saw a talk by a school teacher on pyFLTK: GUI programming made easy.

    On another note: I#: Groovy makes it easy to tie into the Java Swing
    GUI, so if Python could do that, with the added complication being the
    user would need a JVM.
     
    Casey Hawthorne, Jun 27, 2009
    #2
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  3. laplacian42

    Terry Reedy Guest

    What he did say is "But it hasn't really gotten any less complex to
    create the simplest of simple UIs. And that's a shame. When is Microsoft
    going to learn the real lesson about simplicity of HTML?"
     
    Terry Reedy, Jun 27, 2009
    #3
  4. laplacian42

    laplacian42 Guest

    Long ago I did some Java programming and tried out Swing. I think the
    complaints about it are that it's a very large toolkit that requires a
    lot of inheritance to use. However, the underlying premise used by the
    layout managers seemed sound:

    1. Choose a layout manager.

    2. Put one or more containers in it.

    3. Fill the containers with widgets (or other containers), letting
    them decide how to lay out the widgets.

    That aspect, I liked. Seems a lot like nested elements in an html
    page. Perhaps this was what Guido was alluding to?
     
    laplacian42, Jun 27, 2009
    #4
  5. I sorta' wish he'd just come out and say, "This is what I think would
    He is not in the business of designing GUI toolkits, but in the business
    of designing programming languages. So he abstains from specifying
    (or even recommending) a GUI library.

    What he makes clear is the point that Terry cites: no matter what the
    GUI toolkit is or what features it has - it should be simple to create
    GUIs, as simple as creating HTML.
    His concern really isn't what is in the toolkit, but what isn't.
    It must not require lots of lines of code to produce a simple
    GUI, it must not require specification of absolute coordinates,
    .... - you should be able to continue the list yourself.

    Regards,
    Martin
     
    Martin v. Löwis, Jun 27, 2009
    #5
  6. Sounds a bit like a return of DECWindows on Xt... Which had a
    textual design language to define the widgets in use, names for
    callbacks, etc. and only required the application to load the file and
    map the callbacks to actual code...

    You could change the layout without touching the application code
    (as long as you weren't adding new widgets)
    --
    Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG

    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
    (Bestiaria Support Staff: )
    HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/
     
    Dennis Lee Bieber, Jun 28, 2009
    #6
  7. laplacian42

    Kay Schluehr Guest

    .... which isn't all that different today. One might just take a look
    at JavaFX and how gracefully it handles declarative data flow a.k.a.
    data binding. The evolution of programming languages goes on, with or
    rather without Python.
     
    Kay Schluehr, Jun 28, 2009
    #7
  8. laplacian42

    Simon Forman Guest

    FWIW, I created a simple GUI builder module I call pygoo that lets you
    create Tkinter GUIs from a simple text "specification".

    http://www.pygoo.com/
    http://code.google.com/p/pygoo/

    Warm regards,
    ~Simon
     
    Simon Forman, Jun 28, 2009
    #8
  9. laplacian42

    Nobody Guest

    Xt itself provides some of that, the rest can be had through UIL (which is
    part of Motif). GTK+ can do much of this using Glade.

    The concept of separating code from data is sensible enough, and mirrors
    the concept of stylesheets in HTML. It shouldn't be necessary to specify
    size, position, labels, colours and the like via code. Code only needs to
    be able to get a handle on a specific widget so that it can read and write
    its state, dynamically register callbacks, etc.
     
    Nobody, Jun 28, 2009
    #9
  10. laplacian42

    Stef Mientki Guest

    Gui_support obey the above 2 rules,
    so I guess, 'm on the right way with GUI_support
    http://mientki.ruhosting.nl/data_www/pylab_works/pw_gui_support.html
    What are the other rules ?

    cheers,
    Stef
     
    Stef Mientki, Jun 28, 2009
    #10
  11. Tim Berners-Lee would laugh to hear html described as "simple." He was
    very frustrated with
    how long it took anyone to create a graphical toolkit to create webpages.
     
    Lawson English, Jun 29, 2009
    #11
  12. laplacian42

    Terry Reedy Guest

    Having quoted Guido, I will note a few other things:

    Python already comes with a GUI toolkit, so the question is really "What
    would Guido want in a replacement for tk/tkinter?"

    Obviously, it should be even better that the current (and even,
    prospective) version of TK. 'Better' would need to be demonstrated. Part
    of that would be a PEP written by or supported by the person in charge
    of the replacement, with a detailed comparison and argument. Part of
    that would also be a re-writing of IDLE with the new GUI, with some
    visible advantage in the gui part of the code. I do not believe either
    has been done.

    The replacement should also have majority support. However, there are at
    least 3 or 4 contenders. My impression is that most of the supporters of
    each prefer (and rationally so) the status quo to having one of the
    other contenders being chosen, and thereby shutting out their favorite.

    The replacement would need to work with Py 3. TK does. I have not
    noticed that anything else does, though that should change eventually.
    (And I am sure someone will point of something I have not noticed.)

    Guido is properly somewhat conservative about 'spending' BDFL points.
    There is no need to decide anything at present.

    Terry Jan Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, Jun 29, 2009
    #12
  13. PyQt does.

    Phil
     
    Phil Thompson, Jun 30, 2009
    #13
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