The scrollbar and Firefox.

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Defacta, Dec 1, 2007.

  1. Defacta

    Defacta Guest

    Hi !

    How can make the scrollbar be displayed on Firefox even if there is
    not enough content to justify a scrollbar.
    With IE, the scrollbar is displayed at all times, I would like Firefox
    to do the same.
    I am not talking about a frame or an iframe but about the main page.
    Maybe there is an option to specify in the tag <body>

    Thanks,
    Vincent.
    Defacta, Dec 1, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Defacta
    <> writing in news:e150f302-18a8-46ce-8bce-
    :

    > Hi !
    >
    > How can make the scrollbar be displayed on Firefox even if there is
    > not enough content to justify a scrollbar.
    > With IE, the scrollbar is displayed at all times, I would like Firefox
    > to do the same.
    > I am not talking about a frame or an iframe but about the main page.
    > Maybe there is an option to specify in the tag <body>
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Vincent.
    >


    That could be confusing for a visitor. If there is a scroll bar, the
    user might want to try to scroll for more content - and if there is
    none? Please don't mess with the UA.


    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, Dec 1, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Defacta
    > <> writing in news:e150f302-18a8-46ce-8bce-
    > :
    >
    >> Hi !
    >>
    >> How can make the scrollbar be displayed on Firefox even if there is
    >> not enough content to justify a scrollbar.
    >> With IE, the scrollbar is displayed at all times, I would like Firefox
    >> to do the same.
    >> I am not talking about a frame or an iframe but about the main page.
    >> Maybe there is an option to specify in the tag <body>
    >>
    >> Thanks,
    >> Vincent.
    >>

    >
    > That could be confusing for a visitor. If there is a scroll bar, the
    > user might want to try to scroll for more content - and if there is
    > none? Please don't mess with the UA.
    >
    >


    Agree. Why would you want to replicate this stupid behavior of IE? But
    is possible if you feel so compelled.

    body { overflow: scroll; }

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Dec 1, 2007
    #3
  4. On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:10:36 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

    > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Defacta
    >> <> writing in news:e150f302-18a8-46ce-8bce-
    >> :
    >>
    >> [snip scrollbars all the time in Firefox]
    >>
    >> That could be confusing for a visitor. If there is a scroll bar, the
    >> user might want to try to scroll for more content - and if there is
    >> none? Please don't mess with the UA.

    >
    > Agree. Why would you want to replicate this stupid behavior of IE?



    It ensures that the content area of the page doesn't change width depending
    on the height of the content. This can be a undesired effect in a situation
    where a visitor is moving between several pages in quick succession (for
    example, when filling in a form split across multiple pages). I've only
    once worked on a site where the effect has been annoying enough for me to
    apply the overflow:scroll rule, but I don't regard the original poster's
    comment as an illegitimate complaint.


    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)

    Common Web Browser Window Sizes:
    http://www.safalra.com/web-design/usability/common-browser-window-sizes/
    Safalra (Stephen Morley), Dec 1, 2007
    #4
  5. Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:
    > On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:10:36 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    >
    >> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Defacta
    >>> <> writing in news:e150f302-18a8-46ce-8bce-
    >>> :
    >>>
    >>> [snip scrollbars all the time in Firefox]
    >>>
    >>> That could be confusing for a visitor. If there is a scroll bar, the
    >>> user might want to try to scroll for more content - and if there is
    >>> none? Please don't mess with the UA.

    >> Agree. Why would you want to replicate this stupid behavior of IE?

    >
    >
    > It ensures that the content area of the page doesn't change width depending
    > on the height of the content. This can be a undesired effect in a situation
    > where a visitor is moving between several pages in quick succession (for
    > example, when filling in a form split across multiple pages). I've only
    > once worked on a site where the effect has been annoying enough for me to
    > apply the overflow:scroll rule, but I don't regard the original poster's
    > comment as an illegitimate complaint.
    >


    Ah, but Microsoft has decreed that only thy vertical scrollbar shall be
    ever present. It is okay for the horizontal one to pop in and out as
    needed and intrude on vertical viewport space! I just find that funny.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Dec 1, 2007
    #5
  6. Defacta

    Bone Ur Guest

    Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sat, 01 Dec 2007 19:23:33
    GMT Jonathan N. Little scribed:

    >>> Agree. Why would you want to replicate this stupid behavior of IE?

    >>
    >>
    >> It ensures that the content area of the page doesn't change width
    >> depending on the height of the content. This can be a undesired
    >> effect in a situation where a visitor is moving between several pages
    >> in quick succession (for example, when filling in a form split across
    >> multiple pages).


    And one has a consistent and, say, centered background on multiple pages.

    >> I've only once worked on a site where the effect has
    >> been annoying enough for me to apply the overflow:scroll rule, but I
    >> don't regard the original poster's comment as an illegitimate
    >> complaint.
    >>

    >
    > Ah, but Microsoft has decreed that only thy vertical scrollbar shall
    > be ever present. It is okay for the horizontal one to pop in and out
    > as needed and intrude on vertical viewport space! I just find that
    > funny.


    Microsoft _is_ funny (-in a peculiar way.)

    Not valid, but overflow-y:scroll; works last time I checked.

    --
    Bone Ur
    Cavemen have formidable pheromones.
    Bone Ur, Dec 1, 2007
    #6
  7. On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:23:33 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:
    >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:10:36 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    >>> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >>>> [snip scrollbars all the time in Firefox]
    >>>>
    >>> Why would you want to replicate this stupid behavior of IE?

    >>
    >> It ensures that the content area of the page doesn't change width depending
    >> on the height of the content. This can be a undesired effect in a situation
    >> where a visitor is moving between several pages in quick succession (for
    >> example, when filling in a form split across multiple pages). I've only
    >> once worked on a site where the effect has been annoying enough for me to
    >> apply the overflow:scroll rule, but I don't regard the original poster's
    >> comment as an illegitimate complaint.
    >>

    >
    > Ah, but Microsoft has decreed that only thy vertical scrollbar shall be
    > ever present. It is okay for the horizontal one to pop in and out as
    > needed and intrude on vertical viewport space! I just find that funny.



    The appearance and disappearance of the vertical scrollbar can make
    horizontally centred content jump around (I should have mentioned in my
    previous post the other situation in which the effect is undesirable -
    pages whose height may change dynamically). Vertical centring is very rare
    so the horizontal scrollbar isn't so much of a problem.


    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)

    Common Web Browser Window Sizes:
    http://www.safalra.com/web-design/usability/common-browser-window-sizes/
    Safalra (Stephen Morley), Dec 1, 2007
    #7
  8. Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:

    > The appearance and disappearance of the vertical scrollbar can make
    > horizontally centred content jump around (I should have mentioned in my
    > previous post the other situation in which the effect is undesirable -
    > pages whose height may change dynamically). Vertical centring is very rare
    > so the horizontal scrollbar isn't so much of a problem.


    Maybe the real problem is that too many web "designers" feel compelled
    to use fixed-width containers centered in the viewport, eh?

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Dec 1, 2007
    #8
  9. On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 15:29:25 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:
    >
    >> The appearance and disappearance of the vertical scrollbar can make
    >> horizontally centred content jump around (I should have mentioned in my
    >> previous post the other situation in which the effect is undesirable -
    >> pages whose height may change dynamically). Vertical centring is very rare
    >> so the horizontal scrollbar isn't so much of a problem.

    >
    > Maybe the real problem is that too many web "designers" feel compelled
    > to use fixed-width containers centered in the viewport, eh?



    The problem isn't limited to fixed-width designs. In fluid designs the text
    will likely wrap differently if the content area becomes narrower or wider.


    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)

    Common Web Browser Window Sizes:
    http://www.safalra.com/web-design/usability/common-browser-window-sizes/
    Safalra (Stephen Morley), Dec 1, 2007
    #9
  10. Defacta

    Defacta Guest

    On 1 déc, 19:10, "Jonathan N. Little" <> wrote:
    > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    > > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Defacta
    > > <> writing in news:e150f302-18a8-46ce-8bce-
    > > :

    >
    > >> Hi !

    >
    > >> How can make the scrollbar be displayed on Firefox even if there is
    > >> not enough content to justify a scrollbar.
    > >> With IE, the scrollbar is displayed at all times, I would like Firefox
    > >> to do the same.
    > >> I am not talking about a frame or an iframe but about the main page.
    > >> Maybe there is an option to specify in the tag <body>

    >
    > >> Thanks,
    > >> Vincent.

    >
    > > That could be confusing for a visitor. If there is a scroll bar, the
    > > user might want to try to scroll for more content - and if there is
    > > none? Please don't mess with the UA.

    >
    > Agree. Why would you want to replicate this stupid behavior of IE? But
    > is possible if you feel so compelled.
    >
    > body { overflow: scroll; }
    >
    > --
    > Take care,
    >
    > Jonathan
    > -------------------
    > LITTLE WORKS STUDIOhttp://www.LittleWorksStudio.com


    Yes it works fine with Firefox but now I have troubles with IE 6 which
    display some scrollbars inside the page,
    You can have a look here:
    http://boxfly.free.fr/test/test_scroll/

    Does anyone know why IE 6 display some scrollbars inside the page when
    I had "overflow: scroll;" to the style of the body ?

    Thanks,
    Vincent.
    Defacta, Dec 1, 2007
    #10
  11. Defacta

    Bergamot Guest

    Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:
    >
    > The problem isn't limited to fixed-width designs. In fluid designs the text
    > will likely wrap differently if the content area becomes narrower or wider.


    And that's a problem because...?

    Rewrapping to fit the available space is how a fluid design *should*
    work, is it not?

    --
    Berg
    Bergamot, Dec 1, 2007
    #11
  12. Defacta wrote:
    > On 1 déc, 19:10, "Jonathan N. Little" <> wrote:
    >> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Defacta
    >>> <> writing in news:e150f302-18a8-46ce-8bce-
    >>> :
    >>>> Hi !
    >>>> How can make the scrollbar be displayed on Firefox even if there is
    >>>> not enough content to justify a scrollbar.
    >>>> With IE, the scrollbar is displayed at all times, I would like Firefox
    >>>> to do the same.
    >>>> I am not talking about a frame or an iframe but about the main page.
    >>>> Maybe there is an option to specify in the tag <body>
    >>>> Thanks,
    >>>> Vincent.
    >>> That could be confusing for a visitor. If there is a scroll bar, the
    >>> user might want to try to scroll for more content - and if there is
    >>> none? Please don't mess with the UA.

    >> Agree. Why would you want to replicate this stupid behavior of IE? But
    >> is possible if you feel so compelled.
    >>
    >> body { overflow: scroll; }
    >>
    >> --
    >> Take care,
    >>
    >> Jonathan
    >> -------------------
    >> LITTLE WORKS STUDIOhttp://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

    >
    > Yes it works fine with Firefox but now I have troubles with IE 6 which
    > display some scrollbars inside the page,
    > You can have a look here:
    > http://boxfly.free.fr/test/test_scroll/
    >
    > Does anyone know why IE 6 display some scrollbars inside the page when
    > I had "overflow: scroll;" to the style of the body ?


    Well you do have a mish-mosh of XHTML and HTML, in valid markup.

    http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://boxfly.free.fr/test/test_scroll/
    [Invalid] Markup Validation of http://boxfly.free.fr/test/test_scroll/ -
    W3C Markup Validator


    So as browsers try to "digest" all this they can come to different
    conclusions. First start with valid markup, fix the errors, then see if
    you get cross browsers consistency.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Dec 1, 2007
    #12
  13. Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:
    > On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 15:29:25 -0500, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    >> Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:
    >>
    >>> The appearance and disappearance of the vertical scrollbar can make
    >>> horizontally centred content jump around (I should have mentioned in my
    >>> previous post the other situation in which the effect is undesirable -
    >>> pages whose height may change dynamically). Vertical centring is very rare
    >>> so the horizontal scrollbar isn't so much of a problem.

    >> Maybe the real problem is that too many web "designers" feel compelled
    >> to use fixed-width containers centered in the viewport, eh?

    >
    >
    > The problem isn't limited to fixed-width designs. In fluid designs the text
    > will likely wrap differently if the content area becomes narrower or wider.


    So. With a fluid design and number of elements may reflow when you
    change the viewport. Who cares? Unless you like reading pages while
    winging the viewport dimensions back and forth.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Dec 1, 2007
    #13
  14. Defacta

    Mark Guest

    Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > Defacta wrote:
    >> On 1 déc, 19:10, "Jonathan N. Little" <> wrote:
    >>> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >>>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Defacta
    >>>> <> writing in news:e150f302-18a8-46ce-8bce-
    >>>> :
    >>>>> Hi !
    >>>>> How can make the scrollbar be displayed on Firefox even if there is
    >>>>> not enough content to justify a scrollbar.
    >>>>> With IE, the scrollbar is displayed at all times, I would like Firefox
    >>>>> to do the same.
    >>>>> I am not talking about a frame or an iframe but about the main page.
    >>>>> Maybe there is an option to specify in the tag <body>
    >>>>> Thanks,
    >>>>> Vincent.
    >>>> That could be confusing for a visitor. If there is a scroll bar, the
    >>>> user might want to try to scroll for more content - and if there is
    >>>> none? Please don't mess with the UA.
    >>> Agree. Why would you want to replicate this stupid behavior of IE? But
    >>> is possible if you feel so compelled.
    >>>
    >>> body { overflow: scroll; }
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> Take care,
    >>>
    >>> Jonathan
    >>> -------------------
    >>> LITTLE WORKS STUDIOhttp://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

    >>
    >> Yes it works fine with Firefox but now I have troubles with IE 6 which
    >> display some scrollbars inside the page,
    >> You can have a look here:
    >> http://boxfly.free.fr/test/test_scroll/
    >>
    >> Does anyone know why IE 6 display some scrollbars inside the page when
    >> I had "overflow: scroll;" to the style of the body ?

    >
    > Well you do have a mish-mosh of XHTML and HTML, in valid markup.
    >
    > http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://boxfly.free.fr/test/test_scroll/
    >
    > [Invalid] Markup Validation of http://boxfly.free.fr/test/test_scroll/ -
    > W3C Markup Validator
    >
    >
    > So as browsers try to "digest" all this they can come to different
    > conclusions. First start with valid markup, fix the errors, then see if
    > you get cross browsers consistency.


    This valid enough for ya?

    http://www.lester1.eclipse.co.uk/test/

    For anyone unable to test in IE6:

    http://www.lester1.eclipse.co.uk/test/ie.gif
    Mark, Dec 2, 2007
    #14
  15. On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:31:00 -0600, Bergamot wrote:
    > Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:
    >>
    >> The problem isn't limited to fixed-width designs. In fluid designs the text
    >> will likely wrap differently if the content area becomes narrower or wider.

    >
    > And that's a problem because...?
    >
    > Rewrapping to fit the available space is how a fluid design *should*
    > work, is it not?



    Permit me to try to exaplin again: Pages that are dynamically updated
    (through AJAX, for example) may change height *while the visitor is viewing
    them*. If this causes a vertical scrollbar to appear or disappear then
    content may jump (in fixed-width designs) or rewrap (in fluid designs).
    Both effects are undesirable as the result is that parts of the page
    content that haven't been changed jump around.


    --
    Safalra (Stephen Morley)

    Common Web Browser Window Sizes:
    http://www.safalra.com/web-design/usability/common-browser-window-sizes/
    Safalra (Stephen Morley), Dec 2, 2007
    #15
  16. Defacta

    Defacta Guest

    On 2 déc, 10:58, Mark <> wrote:
    > Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > > Defacta wrote:
    > >> On 1 déc, 19:10, "Jonathan N. Little" <> wrote:
    > >>> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    > >>>> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Defacta
    > >>>> <> writing in news:e150f302-18a8-46ce-8bce-
    > >>>> :
    > >>>>> Hi !
    > >>>>> How can make the scrollbar be displayed on Firefox even if there is
    > >>>>> not enough content to justify a scrollbar.
    > >>>>> With IE, the scrollbar is displayed at all times, I would like Firefox
    > >>>>> to do the same.
    > >>>>> I am not talking about a frame or an iframe but about the main page.
    > >>>>> Maybe there is an option to specify in the tag <body>
    > >>>>> Thanks,
    > >>>>> Vincent.
    > >>>> That could be confusing for a visitor. If there is a scroll bar, the
    > >>>> user might want to try to scroll for more content - and if there is
    > >>>> none? Please don't mess with the UA.
    > >>> Agree. Why would you want to replicate this stupid behavior of IE? But
    > >>> is possible if you feel so compelled.

    >
    > >>> body { overflow: scroll; }

    >
    > >>> --
    > >>> Take care,

    >
    > >>> Jonathan
    > >>> -------------------
    > >>> LITTLE WORKS STUDIOhttp://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

    >
    > >> Yes it works fine with Firefox but now I have troubles with IE 6 which
    > >> display some scrollbars inside the page,
    > >> You can have a look here:
    > >>http://boxfly.free.fr/test/test_scroll/

    >
    > >> Does anyone know why IE 6 display some scrollbars inside the page when
    > >> I had "overflow: scroll;" to the style of the body ?

    >
    > > Well you do have a mish-mosh of XHTML and HTML, in valid markup.

    >
    > >http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://boxfly.free.....

    >
    > > [Invalid] Markup Validation ofhttp://boxfly.free.fr/test/test_scroll/-
    > > W3C Markup Validator

    >
    > > So as browsers try to "digest" all this they can come to different
    > > conclusions. First start with valid markup, fix the errors, then see if
    > > you get cross browsers consistency.

    >
    > This valid enough for ya?
    >
    > http://www.lester1.eclipse.co.uk/test/
    >
    > For anyone unable to test in IE6:
    >
    > http://www.lester1.eclipse.co.uk/test/ie.gif


    I have put it in the html tag:
    <html style=\"overflow:scroll\" ...>

    And now it works fine with Firefox and with IE6
    :)
    Vincent.
    Defacta, Dec 2, 2007
    #16
  17. Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:
    > On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 16:31:00 -0600, Bergamot wrote:
    >> Safalra (Stephen Morley) wrote:
    >>> The problem isn't limited to fixed-width designs. In fluid designs the text
    >>> will likely wrap differently if the content area becomes narrower or wider.

    >> And that's a problem because...?
    >>
    >> Rewrapping to fit the available space is how a fluid design *should*
    >> work, is it not?

    >
    >
    > Permit me to try to exaplin again: Pages that are dynamically updated
    > (through AJAX, for example) may change height *while the visitor is viewing
    > them*. If this causes a vertical scrollbar to appear or disappear then
    > content may jump (in fixed-width designs) or rewrap (in fluid designs).
    > Both effects are undesirable as the result is that parts of the page
    > content that haven't been changed jump around.
    >


    Well then you have to take that into consideration when you design the
    page. There are many ways to address the situation, many times the best
    solution is approaching the design form a different direction to result
    in a similar end. However with such hypothetical question there is not
    specific hypothetical answer.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Dec 2, 2007
    #17
  18. Jonathan N. Little, Dec 2, 2007
    #18
  19. Defacta wrote:

    Don't use inline styles

    > I have put it in the html tag:
    > <html style=\"overflow:scroll\" ...>

    ^ ^
    And I don't know why you are escaping quotes with "\"
    >
    > And now it works fine with Firefox and with IE6


    Just put a style element in your document head:

    <head>
    <style type="text/css">
    html { overflow: scroll; }
    </style>
    ....

    or better yet, link to a separate stylesheet file in the head

    <head>
    <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="mystyle.css">
    ...



    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Dec 2, 2007
    #19
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