a good programming text editor (not IDE)

[63q2o4i02]

Time and again I hear this (no shortage of Vim fans, same with Emacs),
and I know I should know better but always believe them yet again.
Invariably I download Vim play with it for an hour, get increasingly
frustrated and give up. Most likely I'm greatly spoiled by using
EditPlus (Windows only), it just makes it so easy to do the basic
programming tasks that I need, everywhere else I turn I see far more
functionality but at the price of not being able to do basic tasks as
efficiently as I need them.

Say I want to be able to execute the python program I'm currently
editing. Nothing simpler in EditPlus, Tools->Configure Tools->Add Tool
then specify which program you want to run, what parameters it takes
and whether to capture the output or not ... total time it took me
first time I wanted to do this ... about 3 minutes ... from now on
pressing Ctrl-1 while editing the source will execute the python on the
current source *and* it displays the output in a lower pane as it runs
*and* it allows me to simultanously edit the file *while* the program
is running. Outstanding.

Yet after searching and reading stuff for more than an hour I was
unable to accomplish the same thing in Vim though I'm already familiar
enough with basic editing and setup (through my previous trials and
tribulations) ... I have a few solutions that end up doing something
similar but are quite a few keypresses longer both to invoke or to get
back to the source that I'm writing, or I lose editing control while
the program is running ... etc...

So if the OP is on windows just head over and get EditPlus (UltraEdit
and TextPad seem to be similar), and just accept the fact that you are
already using an editor that as good as an editor can get ... I know
I'd pay that registration once again for an editor that works the same
way on Linux...

i.

I'm a huge EditPlus fan and there are not enough good things I can say
about it. The main thing about GUIs which unix people don't seem to
get is discoverability is key. Every time I've tried using x-emacs or
x-anything (or even Scite as it seems to be popular), there is very
little that is intuitive or obvious about the interface, and even
though you have a GUI right there in front of you, things are still
controlled in dot whatever files, with some special syntax and magic
words for everything! Even doing a search and replace in x-emacs is
f*cked up. I was trying to use it for something a few years ago (I
dunno, maybe 2002 or 2003 on debian or 2000 on redhat), and it just
didn't work the way I expected it to work, ie it didn't follow what has
become the standard GUI (read: windows) way of doing things. There
should be a dialog for search and replace. If it doesn't do it that
way, then don't pretend to be a gui, because you're not, you're
pandering to the "we want a gui crowd" while still stickin' it to 'em
by forcing them to remember commands for shit like changing word
wrapping (oh my god there's a *mode* for word wrapping? m-x-wtf
change-the-mode-to-something-I-forget-what) and reminding everyone what
a privilege it is to learn f***king lisp to enable some obscure little
tweak which could just as easily have shown up in a checkbox. Scite
was jacked because the main window didn't have anything discoverable on
it, and one of the main menus just had a list of syntaxes you could use
to highlight your code... and the other menu opened up your dot
whatever file to change the settings. That's just retarded.

I think there is a fine line between being too dumbed down to do
anything (point click ooh aahh), and so "flexible", "customizable", and
"free" that it feels you have to roll-your-own text editor each time
you want to start a new project. This is the best article on guis and
stuff I've read in a while.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/fog0000000249.html

Anyway, the only thing editplus doesn't do that I wish it did is code
folding. All the stuff you guys are talking about: line numbers,
syntax highlighting, custom tools (running the interpreter), regexp
search and replace, keeping your environment the same between sessions,
soft word wrap, tab-vs-spaces, auto-indent, braces-matching, bla bla...
it does it all in an appropriately gui manner without making you feel
like a moron for not psychically knowing the command ahead of time, or
for not having someone to copy a dot whatever file from, or not Reading
TFM (which of course never tells you what you want to know anyway --
it's either a patronizingly simple-minded 3rd grade tutorial, or it
tells you what a command does if you already know its f***king name!).
And of course all these editplus things are accessible via the keyboard
without necessarily hitting alt to go to the menu. And no, it doesn't
read email or newsgroups, run custom scripts to beautify your code, or
have 20MB of stuff to download and 20 years of history to catch up on.
I've rarely needed anything more than straightforward editing, so I
guess I'm not worthy to have an opinion of how shitty *nix is for
pretending to have guis. If you (meaning y'all) like to feel superior
by memorizing commands how to change the word wrapping mode,
braces-indenting mode, background color, foreground color,
braces-matching, apropos-me-this, then by all means make things
difficult for the rest of us lowly non-professional programmers (I'm a
hardware designer by trade, but like to **** around python for fun).
For me, when I just have something quick and dirty, I use editplus and
that makes me sooo happpyyyyy. If there were something like this for
Linux I might even consider switching long term.

 

[H J van Rooyen]

Tim Chase wrote:

| > No need to argue. I started with vim, and finally switched to
| > emacs less than one year later.
|
| Both are very-much-so good editors. I made the opposite switch
| from emacs to vim in less than a year. Both are good^Wgreat
| editors, so one's decision to use one over the other is more a
| matter of working style. I don't grok LISP, and just never felt
| at home in emacs, despite all the power I could see that was
| there. I grok vim (and its similar power/extensibility), so I
| migrated to it. I have to laugh at the whole holy-war thing, as
| it's somewhat like arguing about a favorite color. "But blue is
| so better than green! The sky is blue!" "Nuh, uh! Green is far
| better than blue! Grass is green!" (okay, here in Texas, that
| doesn't always hold as true...maybe personality #2 should be
| arguing for brown instead).
|
| My best friend is an emacs user, and I'm a vimmer...it doesn't
| come between us.

You guys are not gonna believe this - I keep a low grade PC specially so that I
can do my programming with Brief (yes the one by Underware) - and yes I know
Emacs has a so called *crisp* emulator - but IMNSHO it sucks!

I like the macros, I do some stuff with the macro language, and as a mostly
assembler programmer, I adore the way it copies and pastes columns with minimal
keystrokes....

And I switch between buffers (different files - "modules" in Python ) - with an
alt n or alt - .....

and worse - like the confirmed Vi or Emacs user - the problem is that you get
used to it, and ya dont wanna change...

- Hendrik

I wish I could run this on my Linux box....

 

[Paddy]

Hi 63q2o4i02

Cream is a package built on top of vim that presents a more "Windows
friendly" face to the vim/gvim editor.
It is avaiable for Windows and Linux and might give you a single editor
that you can use on more platforms, but maybe you might like the
interface better.

It does syntax hilighting for Python and code foding.

http://cream.sourceforge.net/

- Paddy.

 

[Sybren Stuvel]

H J van Rooyen enlightened us with:

and worse - like the confirmed Vi or Emacs user - the problem is
that you get used to it, and ya dont wanna change...

That's the reason a friend of mine refuses to learn VIM - he is afraid
he won't be able to use any other editor ;-)

Sybren

 

[63q2o4i02]

Cream is a package built on top of vim that presents a more "Windows
friendly" face to the vim/gvim editor.

Cool thanks, I'll check it out.

 

[jussij]

Anyway, the only thing editplus doesn't do that I wish it
did is code folding.

If you need a Python folding editor you could always take
a look at Zeus:

http://www.zeusedit.com/python.html

All the stuff you guys are talking about: line numbers,
syntax highlighting, custom tools (running the interpreter),
regexp search and replace, keeping your environment the same
between sessions, soft word wrap, tab-vs-spaces, auto-indent,
braces-matching, bla bla... it does it all in an appropriately
gui manner without making you feel

Zeus does all this, plus it adds features project/workspace
management, ftp editing and class browsing.

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus for Windows

 

[Ten]

I'm a huge EditPlus fan and there are not enough good things I can say
about it. The main thing about GUIs which unix people don't seem to
get is discoverability is key. Every time I've tried using x-emacs or
x-anything (or even Scite as it seems to be popular), there is very
little that is intuitive or obvious about the interface, and even
though you have a GUI right there in front of you, things are still
controlled in dot whatever files, with some special syntax and magic
words for everything! Even doing a search and replace in x-emacs is
f*cked up. I was trying to use it for something a few years ago (I
dunno, maybe 2002 or 2003 on debian or 2000 on redhat), and it just
didn't work the way I expected it to work, ie it didn't follow what has
become the standard GUI (read: windows) way of doing things. There
should be a dialog for search and replace. If it doesn't do it that
way, then don't pretend to be a gui, because you're not, you're
pandering to the "we want a gui crowd" while still stickin' it to 'em
by forcing them to remember commands for shit like changing word
wrapping (oh my god there's a *mode* for word wrapping? m-x-wtf
change-the-mode-to-something-I-forget-what) and reminding everyone what
a privilege it is to learn f***king lisp to enable some obscure little
tweak which could just as easily have shown up in a checkbox. Scite
was jacked because the main window didn't have anything discoverable on
it, and one of the main menus just had a list of syntaxes you could use
to highlight your code... and the other menu opened up your dot
whatever file to change the settings. That's just retarded.

I think there is a fine line between being too dumbed down to do
anything (point click ooh aahh), and so "flexible", "customizable", and
"free" that it feels you have to roll-your-own text editor each time
you want to start a new project. This is the best article on guis and
stuff I've read in a while.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/fog0000000249.html

Anyway, the only thing editplus doesn't do that I wish it did is code
folding. All the stuff you guys are talking about: line numbers,
syntax highlighting, custom tools (running the interpreter), regexp
search and replace, keeping your environment the same between sessions,
soft word wrap, tab-vs-spaces, auto-indent, braces-matching, bla bla...
it does it all in an appropriately gui manner without making you feel
like a moron for not psychically knowing the command ahead of time, or
for not having someone to copy a dot whatever file from, or not Reading
TFM (which of course never tells you what you want to know anyway --
it's either a patronizingly simple-minded 3rd grade tutorial, or it
tells you what a command does if you already know its f***king name!).
And of course all these editplus things are accessible via the keyboard
without necessarily hitting alt to go to the menu. And no, it doesn't
read email or newsgroups, run custom scripts to beautify your code, or
have 20MB of stuff to download and 20 years of history to catch up on.
I've rarely needed anything more than straightforward editing, so I
guess I'm not worthy to have an opinion of how shitty *nix is for
pretending to have guis. If you (meaning y'all) like to feel superior
by memorizing commands how to change the word wrapping mode,
braces-indenting mode, background color, foreground color,
braces-matching, apropos-me-this, then by all means make things
difficult for the rest of us lowly non-professional programmers (I'm a
hardware designer by trade, but like to **** around python for fun).
For me, when I just have something quick and dirty, I use editplus and
that makes me sooo happpyyyyy. If there were something like this for
Linux I might even consider switching long term.

Speaking as a user of emacs, imo EditPlus is a very sound little product - I did some
work with it a while back and it stands out in my memory as a fairly pleasant experience.

In the same sort of vein on other platforms, BlueFish is a nice basic GUI-based editor,
and whilst touted as a web editor, it has enough features (piping output or files through
other apps, a configurable dialog for each code snippet, etc.) that it's perfectly usable
as a programming editor of the sort you're referring to.

Still, before you decide to tell all the unix/vim/emacs/whatever users that they're a bunch
of elitist swine, it might be nice to remember that some aren't, and might not deserve to
be branded as such for no reason other than that you, personally, can't stand to use program X!

Incidentally, x-emacs, kde and gnome are not the same as windows, neither is os x, therefore
they may be unfamiliar in some ways. To me that's not really a legitimate technical or HCI-based
criticism of software people have written, it's a statement of the obvious. Is your grill
deficient because it doesn't work in the same way as your toaster?

Something to ponder.

Good luck to you.

Cheers,

Ten.