browser & dispalying of "frames"

D

...D.

I am just looking at some free templates that have at least a side frame with
the main frame. I notice that there is always a "noframes" out that is
supposed to be incorporated into the html file.

I am curious (and I'd just plain like to avoid having to include the noframes
code) - in this day and age, are there still any browsers used by people that
cannot display multiple frames? If so, what % of users are we talking here?

....D.
 
S

SpaceGirl

....D. said:
I am just looking at some free templates that have at least a side frame with
the main frame. I notice that there is always a "noframes" out that is
supposed to be incorporated into the html file.

I am curious (and I'd just plain like to avoid having to include the noframes
code) - in this day and age, are there still any browsers used by people that
cannot display multiple frames? If so, what % of users are we talking here?

...D.

Quite a lot. How about every mobile device? My cellphone happily
displays XHTML, but it skips frames if there are any.

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
 
D

David Dorward

....D. said:
I am just looking at some free templates that have at least a side frame
with the main frame.

I'm yet to see a prewritten template of reasonable quality - let alone a
*free* one.
I notice that there is always a "noframes" out that is
supposed to be incorporated into the html file.

Which is usually filled with rubbish content.
noframes code) - in this day and age, are there still any browsers used by
people that cannot display multiple frames?

Search engines.
Most browsers have trouble bookmarking framed pages.
The browsers on most cell phones.
The browsers on at least some PDAs (I've only used on PDA browser - the one
which comes with the very popular Palm Tungsten range, it doesn't support
frames, but I can't comment on others)
I spent quite some time using Lynx this morning as I was having issues with
X11 - it can't display multiple frames, but its a good browser for well
written sites.
 
R

Rob Collyer

I am just looking at some free templates that have at least a side
frame with the main frame. I notice that there is always a "noframes"
out that is supposed to be incorporated into the html file.

I am curious (and I'd just plain like to avoid having to include the
noframes code) - in this day and age, are there still any browsers
used by people that cannot display multiple frames? If so, what % of
users are we talking here?

...D.

I would always advise against the use of frames... purely from a search
engine optimisation point of view.

Search engines find it notoriously difficult to see inside of frames...

Also, consider a specic frame is indexed and shows up in the search
results.... a visitor arrives at an individual frame and has no other
frames... therefore, they may not have a way to navigate around your
website.

There is always a way to have exactly the same effect without using
frames.... specifically, you'll be looking at XHTML with CSS.

There are many sites out there to help you break out of frames... do a
search on google for 'css design templates'

Hope this helps.
 
W

Webcastmaker

I am just looking at some free templates that have at least a side frame with
the main frame. I notice that there is always a "noframes" out that is
supposed to be incorporated into the html file.
I am curious (and I'd just plain like to avoid having to include the noframes
code) - in this day and age, are there still any browsers used by people that
cannot display multiple frames? If so, what % of users are we talking here?

Virtually all browsers can display frames. That is not the issue,
the real issue is if you really need frames. Chances are you don't
(but there are exceptions)

What is it you are really trying to do? Why do you think you need
frames?
 
W

Webcastmaker

Quite a lot. How about every mobile device? My cellphone happily
displays XHTML, but it skips frames if there are any.

I don't believe anyone randomly "browses the web" with a hand held
device. (Oh, I am sure someone here will say "thats all I use...")
If nothing else, it is cost prohibitive to do so.

People go to specific sites with there mobile devices, these sites
are designed for this. It is the exception to the rule for someone
to just browse the Web with their phone...
 
D

David Dorward

Webcastmaker said:
People go to specific sites with there mobile devices, these sites
are designed for this.

I go to specific sites with mobile devices. Many of them are not designed
for mobile devices in particular - semantic markup makes it easy for almost
any site to work with a mobile device.
It is the exception to the rule for someone
to just browse the Web with their phone...

Why design a site that works for almost everybody, when it is so easy to
design one which works for everybody?
 
W

Webcastmaker

I go to specific sites with mobile devices. Many of them are not designed
for mobile devices in particular - semantic markup makes it easy for almost
any site to work with a mobile device.
Why design a site that works for almost everybody, when it is so easy to
design one which works for everybody?

Because you loose the look and feel of the site. (Which is about the
only thing that I disagree with people in this forum) I just believe
that not every site on the web can be effective if designed generic
enough for all see them. Many can, and most commerce sites NEED to
be, but many sites depend on look and feel to draw the clientele they
want. Hey it is a big web out there with lots of people wanting
different things from different sites.

For example, a stock image download site probably does not need to be
designed to be viewed on a hand held as no one (probably one or two
exceptions out there) will view or download the stock images on their
hand held. And viewing the alt for the images is pretty useless when
deciding which stock image they want to use. Even the most verbose
description can not describe the image.
 
D

David Dorward

Because you loose the look and feel of the site.

No you don't. At least, not for any browser which could see it in the first
place. Maybe you lose the look and feel if the end user uses, say, lynx,
but then:

(a) They wouldn't expect to get the look and feel
(b) They are more likely to buy if they can use the site then if they can't.
For example, a stock image download site probably does not need to be
designed to be viewed on a hand held as no one (probably one or two
exceptions out there) will view or download the stock images on their
hand held.

There is still no need to use technology which blocks users of handheld
devices.
And viewing the alt for the images is pretty useless when
deciding which stock image they want to use. Even the most verbose
description can not describe the image.

On the other hand, it might be enough information for the user to decide
that it is a possible match for what they want and tell their browser to
load that image so they can take a closer look.
 
M

Matthias Gutfeldt

Webcastmaker said:
Because you loose the look and feel of the site. (Which is about the
only thing that I disagree with people in this forum) I just believe
that not every site on the web can be effective if designed generic
enough for all see them. Many can, and most commerce sites NEED to
be, but many sites depend on look and feel to draw the clientele they
want. Hey it is a big web out there with lots of people wanting
different things from different sites.

For example, a stock image download site probably does not need to be
designed to be viewed on a hand held as no one (probably one or two
exceptions out there) will view or download the stock images on their
hand held.

What, specifically, NEEDS to be done to the look&feel of a stock image
site that prevents a mobile device from using the site effectively?


Matthias
 
W

Webcastmaker

No you don't. At least, not for any browser which could see it in the first
place. Maybe you lose the look and feel if the end user uses, say, lynx,
but then:
(a) They wouldn't expect to get the look and feel
(b) They are more likely to buy if they can use the site then if they can't.

What you and others miss is the fact to a huge number of people, the
Web is a visual thing. Search placement and the ability to use the
site via a hand held (or a reader) are not important to these
visitors. What is important to them is the Fancy flash intro, or the
cool DHTML menus, or flash or other such things. These visitors LOOK
for sites that are like that. They will leave a site if it does not
meet their "visual" eye candy requirements, because that is what they
want.

Most entertainment sites, (virtually all when kids are involved),
many sporting sites, and many product sites where we have chosen a
brand (Coke or Pepsi for example) are like this. If they loose that
look and feel, then they loose their customers. In these cases, the
presentation of the content is equally as important as the content
itself.

You and others seem to disagree with that and I am sure that, this
argument will continue here for years to come. But I am bored with
it. You make sites the way you think is right, and I will do the
same.
There is still no need to use technology which blocks users of handheld
devices.

There is if the said fix hurts the presentation.
On the other hand, it might be enough information for the user to decide
that it is a possible match for what they want and tell their browser to
load that image so they can take a closer look.

It might be, but then there is an equally good chance (probably
better chance in this specific case) that it is useless.

You take the last word because I am not going to argue about it. A
simple search of alt.html will supply the readers of this thread
every argument either side has.
 
W

Webcastmaker

What, specifically, NEEDS to be done to the look&feel of a stock image
site that prevents a mobile device from using the site effectively

A mobile device could NEVER use the site effectively because the
REASON the site exists is to download stock images which are useless
on the hand held. So, anything I want to do with the presentation of
the site that prevents a mobile device from displaying properly is
moot.

I will just have to accept the fact that the few users that stumble
upon the site with their cell phone will never be my customer. As
they would obviously never come back with their browser after such a
terrible experience with their hand held.

Aren't you bored with this yet?
 
D

David Dorward

Webcastmaker said:
What you and others miss is the fact to a huge number of people, the
Web is a visual thing.

So they won't use non-graphical browsers! That doesn't mean you can't have
the site degrade gracefully for those who do!
There is if the said fix hurts the presentation.

When would providing decent <noframes> content hurt the presentation?
 
D

David Dorward

Webcastmaker said:
A mobile device could NEVER use the site effectively because the
REASON the site exists is to download stock images which are useless
on the hand held.

Why are the images useless on a handheld?
 
N

Neal

Most entertainment sites, (virtually all when kids are involved),
many sporting sites, and many product sites where we have chosen a
brand (Coke or Pepsi for example) are like this. If they loose that
look and feel, then they loose their customers. In these cases, the
presentation of the content is equally as important as the content
itself.

Sorry, this is just a peeve of mine. You want "lose" here. Unless you mean
something like, "He has loosed the fearful lightning of his terrible,
swift sword."

Roughly:

Loose = adjective, meaning not tight; rarely used as a verb, meaning "to
release or allow to escape."

Lose = verb, meaning "no longer have or keep"
 
N

Nick Theodorakis

[...]
Sorry, this is just a peeve of mine. You want "lose" here.

My pet peeve, too. I wonder what it is about being online that makes
so many people misspell "lose."

Nick
 
M

Mark Parnell

My pet peeve, too. I wonder what it is about being online that makes
so many people misspell "lose."

Yeah, who let them lose on the internet? What a looser.
 
N

Neil Monk

Nick said:
[...]
Sorry, this is just a peeve of mine. You want "lose" here.

My pet peeve, too. I wonder what it is about being online that makes
so many people misspell "lose."

Nick
Is it the same spelling for "to to be dispossed" and for "not tight"?
 

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