frames? hate them or not?

[Lloyd]

I read years ago that a lot of surfers do NOT like pages made with frames.
I have been using Flash for years and somebody wants an html multi-page
site. I don't want to repeat the logo and table buttons and I do know how to
make a 3-frame site. Does anyon know if frames are still acceptable? Thanks
much,
Lloyd

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

I read years ago that a lot of surfers do NOT like pages made with frames.
http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil

I don't want to repeat the logo and table buttons

http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Include_one_file_in_another

 

[Roy Schestowitz]

I read years ago that a lot of surfers do NOT like pages made with
frames.
I have been using Flash for years and somebody wants an html multi-page
site. I don't want to repeat the logo and table buttons and I do know how
to make a 3-frame site. Does anyon know if frames are still acceptable?
Thanks much,
Lloyd

I still use 3 frames in my site (see below) and I regret this. Try to avoid
them before it's too late, i.e. too much work to reverse.

 

[brucie]

In alt.html Lloyd said:

I read years ago that a lot of surfers do NOT like pages made with frames.
http://david.us-lot.org/www/frames/
http://html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
http://www.karlcore.com/articles/article.php?id=2
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/l_vajzovic/tom/web/frames.html

I don't want to repeat the logo and table buttons and I do know how to
make a 3-frame site.

http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Tableless_layouts
http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Include_one_file_in_another

 

[Barbara de Zoete]

I still use 3 frames in my site (see below) and I regret this. Try to
avoid
them before it's too late, i.e. too much work to reverse.

<http://schestowitz.com/>

Is it too late to set a background color for your pages too?
Not all users have their browsers background set to white, you know. I've
set the background color of my viewport on bright green for testing
purposes. Every once in a while I come across some pages with a nice
bright green background, just like yours :-D

 

[SpaceGirl]

I read years ago that a lot of surfers do NOT like pages made with frames.
I have been using Flash for years and somebody wants an html multi-page
site. I don't want to repeat the logo and table buttons and I do know how to
make a 3-frame site. Does anyon know if frames are still acceptable? Thanks
much,
Lloyd

As with most web technologies, it depends HOW you use them. Frames are
NOT evil, but they are hard to do right (and because of that are very
rarely done right). They tend to be a quick fix solution for newbies who
dont know any better, but on occasions they have their uses. There's a
really basic rule - dont use a frame where a #include could be used
instead. If the functionality of your frame can be duplicated by an
#include, then you shouldn't be using a frame.

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[brucie]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

As with most web technologies, it depends HOW you use them. Frames are
NOT evil,

but they are hard to do right (and because of that are very
rarely done right).

but even when "done right" they're broken. in a controlled environment
maybe consider using them but on the internet no way.

They tend to be a quick fix solution for newbies who
dont know any better,

very true.

 

[SpaceGirl]

are too! <pokes spacegirl with my pointy stick/>

You can that a stick? More like a twig. Anyway too early in the
morning for that.

but even when "done right" they're broken. in a controlled environment
maybe consider using them but on the internet no way.

Hmmf. It really does depend. MS uses them quite well on some of their
dynamic pages - it'd be very hard to do some of the hidden content any
other way (gawd.... using MS as an example, what's wrong with me??).

Personally I dont think there's any excuse for using standard frames,
but iframes are very useful.


--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[brucie]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

You can that a stick?

well ummm....

More like a twig.

Personally I dont think there's any excuse for using standard frames,
but iframes are very useful.

aaahhhhaaaaaaa they have the same problem as frames!

 

[SpaceGirl]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

Can? Hmm call.

well ummm....




<bursts into tears and runs away/>

Hm, but what a beautiful twig!

aaahhhhaaaaaaa they have the same problem as frames!

Yes.... like, cant be indexed by search engines, cant be bookmarked etc
etc? But what if you dont actually WANT any of that? Then it's fine.

I've got one (new) site that uses an iframe for a shortcut to news
articles. These articles are also available via normal navigation (so
they get indexed, and can be bookmarked). But to save the user having to
reload an entire (fairly graphically heavy) page for each article a
click displays the article quickly and with almost no download (just raw
text).

Just like twigs, it's not the fact that you use them, it's *how* you use
them

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[brucie]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

Hm, but what a beautiful twig!

you're a big meanie!

I've got one (new) site that uses an iframe for a shortcut to news
articles. These articles are also available via normal navigation (so
they get indexed, and can be bookmarked). But to save the user having
to reload an entire (fairly graphically heavy) page

the entire page doesn't need to load again, just the html which should
be gziped. everything else is cached unless the visitor has fiddles with
their settings and if so thats their own business. modern browsers don't
even flash the page as its populated with new goodies.

Just like twigs,

stick! its a STICK!

 

[Tina - AffordableHOST, Inc.]

I read years ago that a lot of surfers do NOT like pages made with frames.
I have been using Flash for years and somebody wants an html multi-page
site. I don't want to repeat the logo and table buttons and I do know how
to make a 3-frame site. Does anyon know if frames are still acceptable?
Thanks much,

Use Server Side Includes, if your host allows it, instead. You'll take your
menu, for example, and save it as a text file. Then, via SSI, you can
include that menu on any page you wish. If you ever need to change the
menu, all you need to do is update the text file...instead of all of your
html pages. See bignosebird.com/ssi.shtml for instructions.

--Tina

 

[SpaceGirl]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:




you're a big meanie!



the entire page doesn't need to load again, just the html which should
be gziped. everything else is cached unless the visitor has fiddles with
their settings and if so thats their own business. modern browsers don't
even flash the page as its populated with new goodies.

True, generally. But not all the time...

Not if the pages are generated (such as news pages). The content isn't
static, so may not get cached. Even if it IS cached, every element still
has be be "checked for freshness" against the server copy, so you still
get a lot of traffic.

Also, caching doesn't work if you're running Flash animations or
animated GIFs. By reloading the page, you'd reset all the animation
sequences which wouldn't work visually if you were just clicking through
lots of articles.

And again, what about things like tagboards? They're little boards that
sit in small areas of the screen where visitors can leave a tag. These
work rather like slow chat windows. If the entire page had to reload
every time someone tagged it, it simply wouldn't work.

stick! its a STICK!

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

 

[brucie]

In alt.html SpaceGirl said:

True, generally. But not all the time...

my mommy could easily punch out your mommy

 

[Henry]

I read years ago that a lot of surfers do NOT like pages made with frames.
I have been using Flash for years and somebody wants an html multi-page
site. I don't want to repeat the logo and table buttons and I do know how to
make a 3-frame site. Does anyon know if frames are still acceptable? Thanks
much,
Lloyd

There were many web ideas and not all of them have had survived.

Frames were pushed by some gurus, now css are on the wave for EVERYTHING
with the same eagerness as frames were advocated.

The time will show us the winner.

 

[Toby Inkster]

Is it too late to set a background color for your pages too?
Not all users have their browsers background set to white, you know. I've
set the background color of my viewport on bright green

So you told your browser that you want backgrounds to be light green, and
now you're upset that backgrounds are bright green?

 

[Noozer]

So you told your browser that you want backgrounds to be light green, and
now you're upset that backgrounds are bright green?

Only saw this message but...

My browser background here is a medium grey. Looks AWFUL when someone
assumes that all browsers have a white background. All the graphics done on
a white background look horrendous, especially when only half the page is
done that way.

At home my background is off white... I notice the discrepancies, but it's
not too bad.

If a webpage author is going to specify a background color on their
graphics, they should apply it consistantly across their page.

 

[Barbara de Zoete]

So you told your browser that you want backgrounds to be light green, and
now you're upset that backgrounds are bright green?

I remember saying:
^^^^
Where do I say I'm upset? :-D

I thought it was supposed to be a good habit to set background colors.
That's all.

 

[Mark Parnell]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/l_vajzovic/tom/web/frames.html

That link's broken, brucie. :-(

 

[Spartanicus]

I thought it was supposed to be a good habit to set background colors.
That's all.

The mantra is, if you set one color, set them all. Not specifying a
background colour is fine provided that you're not specifying any other
(foreground, link colours etc).