Has anyone tried the usb devices?

B

bucky

I've seen these secure USB devices. You can only run the software off
the USB devices and can't copy it to disk. It's OK if you have a
limited and controlled distribution with a hight license fee. Not a
solution for thousands of clients, but would seem to avoid the mass
copy of the software.

On another note, can anyone point me to recommended 3rd party
licensing software?
 
R

Roedy Green

You can only run the software off
the USB devices and can't copy it to disk

The CPU in the fob will be very slow, so this is suitable only for
doing a very small part of the app. Also consider how you will update
these keys if needed.

I wrote a an essay on them http://mindprod.com/bgloss/thumbdrive.html.
I think what you want, for many applications, but I could not clearly
find is a decryption algorithm run inside the fob so the private key
in there is never exposed.
 
T

Twisted

The CPU in the fob will be very slow, so this is suitable only for
doing a very small part of the app. Also consider how you will update
these keys if needed.

I wrote a an essay on themhttp://mindprod.com/bgloss/thumbdrive.html.
I think what you want, for many applications, but I could not clearly
find is a decryption algorithm run inside the fob so the private key
in there is never exposed.

Yech!

I've long thought a gadget like that with a non-exposed private key
was THE solution to our current CC fraud woes and similar -- a
portable electronic "iWallet" you could load money onto, then use for
online or retail transactions, which would display itself the amount
of the transaction it was signing, so it wouldn't be possible to rip
off the user without them being able to see the real amount they'd be
debited. Also of course the signed transaction would include
timestamp, GUID, and the like, and like a signed cheque could only be
cashed once. In fact it would be an electronic checkbook more than a
credit or debit card. Vendor wouldn't be able to save a copy and then
use it to repeatedly ding you -- no more sneaky "evergreen"
subscription BS. They want more money, they need you to explicitly
authorize each subsequent charge, and that means they get at most one
more out of you before you cancel.

But using the same technique to create a super-dongle is downright
perverse. Twenty-first century, meet Victorian era royal patent type
nonsense.

Did you know that the mighty Lotus product line was strangled by its
own dongles back in the 80s, helping pave the way for the MSOffice
takeover of the productivity-app space shortly after?
 
R

Roedy Green

Did you know that the mighty Lotus product line was strangled by its
own dongles back in the 80s, helping pave the way for the MSOffice
takeover of the productivity-app space shortly after?

Whatever system you use must not interfere with legitimate use.
Violate that cardinal rule and your product ends up in the trashcan or
defanged.

One project I have on the back burner is an extension to the
Replicator. It will mirror a set of encrypted files on client
machines. Your dongle contains private keys (in an uncopyable form),
to let you decrypt some subset of those documents. So to use, you
just plug in your dongle to a USB port and just the files you are
allowed to look at appear in plaintext to your apps. They would
remain in encrypted form. I could not stop you from browsing and
printing a copy or copy/pasting a copy. When you took out the dongle,
the files would effectively disappear.
 
B

bucky

Whatever system you use must not interfere with legitimate use.
Violate that cardinal rule and your product ends up in the trashcan or
defanged.

One project I have on the back burner is an extension to the
Replicator. It will mirror a set of encrypted files on client
machines. Your dongle contains private keys (in an uncopyable form),
to let you decrypt some subset of those documents. So to use, you
just plug in your dongle to a USB port and just the files you are
allowed to look at appear in plaintext to your apps. They would
remain in encrypted form. I could not stop you from browsing and
printing a copy or copy/pasting a copy. When you took out the dongle,
the files would effectively disappear.

That's more along the line of my thinking. The application would only
run if the dongle with a license key was present. My application
supports a management education course and is used by the instructor
to process input from the students. The execution of the program needs
to be flexible as the courses are done on the client site and the
instructor may have to use a client machine because of network
restriction and access to network printers.

So my thought was to have a license key secured on the dongle. The
code could be installed anywhere (java runs) but would only operate if
it sense the dongle. Each key would be unique plus I could set up an
expiration date.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, bucky
 
T

Twisted

So my thought was to have a license key secured on the dongle. The
code could be installed anywhere (java runs) but would only operate if
it sense the dongle. Each key would be unique plus I could set up an
expiration date.

Any thoughts?

Yes -- why on earth do you want to cripple this software's ease-of-use
to try to extort money from people that don't have enough as it is?

Students and teachers are both well known classes of people under
perpetual financial strain. Charging either of them more than a sliver
above the marginal cost for something is criminal.

P.S. what is with GG today? The post I'm replying to showed up on the
read-only NNTP server I use over 20 minutes before it showed up on
Google for me to respond to. Propagation the other way (e.g. of my own
postings) is virtually instantaneous...
 
E

Eric Sosman

bucky said:
That's more along the line of my thinking. The application would only
run if the dongle with a license key was present. [...]

By "dongle," I assume you mean "the 100% reliable dongle
that cannot possibly fail when your customer needs it most,
not even by being left in the pocket of his other trousers
back at the hotel on the other side of town. Satisfaction
guaranteed."
> Any thoughts?

One: The fundamental message of any enforcement scheme
is "I don't trust you." How eager are you to put your
every relationship with a customer (or potential customer)
on an adversarial footing?

The answer "I want to be my customers' mortal enemy" is,
of course, acceptable -- provided you've thought it through
and are comfortable with the consequences. Does the forced
installation of "Windows Genuine Advantage" make you feel
friendlier to Redmond, or does it make you more inclined to
screw them if you can find a way? And WGA is a whole lot
less coercive than any go/no-go dongle would be.

Here's a point to ponder: The provider/purchaser
relationship is not one-sided. If the customer offered to
place his payment in escrow pending his acceptance of your
product as suitable to his needs, would you be willing to
send him your dongle? If not, why not? Why are your rights
in this two-sided TRANSaction superior to your customer's?
Do you think your customer agrees with your reasoning?

But, hell: It's your product, and I'm not going to say
you're wrong or foolhardy or pro-global-warming or any such
thing; after all, I don't know your circumstances. Make your
own choice -- but make it an informed, not a reflexive, choice.
 
B

bucky

bucky said:
That's more along the line of my thinking. The application would only
run if the dongle with a license key was present. [...]

By "dongle," I assume you mean "the 100% reliable dongle
that cannot possibly fail when your customer needs it most,
not even by being left in the pocket of his other trousers
back at the hotel on the other side of town. Satisfaction
guaranteed."
Any thoughts?

One: The fundamental message of any enforcement scheme
is "I don't trust you." How eager are you to put your
every relationship with a customer (or potential customer)
on an adversarial footing?

The answer "I want to be my customers' mortal enemy" is,
of course, acceptable -- provided you've thought it through
and are comfortable with the consequences. Does the forced
installation of "Windows Genuine Advantage" make you feel
friendlier to Redmond, or does it make you more inclined to
screw them if you can find a way? And WGA is a whole lot
less coercive than any go/no-go dongle would be.

Here's a point to ponder: The provider/purchaser
relationship is not one-sided. If the customer offered to
place his payment in escrow pending his acceptance of your
product as suitable to his needs, would you be willing to
send him your dongle? If not, why not? Why are your rights
in this two-sided TRANSaction superior to your customer's?
Do you think your customer agrees with your reasoning?

But, hell: It's your product, and I'm not going to say
you're wrong or foolhardy or pro-global-warming or any such
thing; after all, I don't know your circumstances. Make your
own choice -- but make it an informed, not a reflexive, choice.

Actually, that's we way we do business now. However, we're exploring
more arms length relationships plus potential customer in China --
which has a well published reputation.

You certainly give one side of the equation. But what I'm looking for
is other experience with these devices -- so that I can make a more
informed decision.

Do you have any experience with this kind of advice?
 
E

Eric Sosman

bucky wrote On 07/17/07 09:18,:
[...]
But, hell: It's your product, and I'm not going to say
you're wrong or foolhardy or pro-global-warming or any such
thing; after all, I don't know your circumstances. Make your
own choice -- but make it an informed, not a reflexive, choice.

Actually, that's we way we do business now. However, we're exploring
more arms length relationships plus potential customer in China --
which has a well published reputation.

You certainly give one side of the equation. But what I'm looking for
is other experience with these devices -- so that I can make a more
informed decision.

Do you have any experience with this kind of advice?

(I'm assuming s/ad/de/.)

With USB dongles, no. With earlier-technology
dongles, my experience was limited to recommending
that my (then) company acquire a competitor's product
instead of the dongleized candidate. (Others made
the same recommendation, so I never actually had the
pleasure of dealing with the dongle.)

But as I say: It's a business decision, and it's
your business, and you may well opt for more rather
than less coercion. If you've thought it through,
fine -- but I raise the counter-arguments because it
seems to me an awful lot of people jump straight to
the enforcement bit (dongles, obfuscators, secret
keys, whatnot) *without* thinking it through.
 
M

Martin Gregorie

bucky said:
Do you have any experience with this kind of advice?
I know a hardware dongle better than some alternatives. I have a 2-D CAD
package that I like a lot but whose authors were somewhat paranoid. It
originally used a soft locking system that depended on various keys
being in specific blocks of the hard drive. That generally worked OK
except that running a defragger wrecked the soft locks by moving them.
This annoyed both me and the local distributor on a regular basis. On
the distributor's advice I got the alternative system - a passive
printer port dongle - and the problem has been solved for good. At least
this dongle is hard to loose because it's screwed to the back of the PC.

I can see it being useful under circumstances where the package must,
for some reason, be installed on machine(s) that are not under your
control, e.g. on a client's machines for the duration of a course, and
the client is buying your services, not the software.

About the only other way I know to get a similar effect is to leave the
software installed remotely on your own server, but there could well be
reasons why this might not work as well as locally installed copies:
response time and the impact of network congestion both come to mind.
 
T

Twisted

I know a hardware dongle better than some alternatives. I have a 2-D CAD
package that I like a lot but whose authors were somewhat paranoid. It
originally used a soft locking system that depended on various keys
being in specific blocks of the hard drive. That generally worked OK
except that running a defragger wrecked the soft locks by moving them.
This annoyed both me and the local distributor on a regular basis. On
the distributor's advice I got the alternative system - a passive
printer port dongle - and the problem has been solved for good. At least
this dongle is hard to loose because it's screwed to the back of the PC.

So if you ever need to print a document from this crippleware, you're
up the creek.
I can see it being useful under circumstances where the package must,
for some reason, be installed on machine(s) that are not under your
control, e.g. on a client's machines for the duration of a course, and
the client is buying your services, not the software.

Why not just let them keep the software and have the use of it? Their
continued use of it costs you nothing, after all. Denying it to them
appears to be gratuitous vandalism.
About the only other way I know to get a similar effect is to leave the
software installed remotely on your own server, but there could well be
reasons why this might not work as well as locally installed copies:
response time and the impact of network congestion both come to mind.

Not to mention, gratuitously making their continued use of the
software cost you something just to give you the ability to and an
excuse to charge them for it and control them like a dictator isn't
exactly very nice. Still, without the torture chambers, death camps,
and legions of doom, you aren't quite the tin Pol Pot you aspire to
be. Yet.

Still, this era of software Stalinism is ending and you cannot stop
it. Fighting the inevitable change will only deplete your own
resources and harm yourself and everyone around you that you bully and
victimize in the attempt to cling to your old and sad business models.
It's as if the buggy whip makers passed a law forbidding the use of a
vehicle without a buggy whip, regardless of the uselessness of such on
one with a motorized engine, just to preserve their "right" to stay in
business despite times changing, and there was mass civil
disobedience, and then they started suing everyone in sight, getting
car companies to require ignition interlocks so a car engine could
only be started with a key that took the form of a buggy whip, and so
forth. Meanwhile the buggy whip key can't be used at the same time as
your printer, er I mean won't fit on a normal key ring with your house
keys, and cars and their keys are needlessly expensive compared to
their marginal costs, ...
 
E

Eric Sosman

Twisted said:
So if you ever need to print a document from this crippleware, you're
up the creek.

The printer-port dongles of the Old Days were pass-through
connectors most of the time: You plugged the dongle into the
machine's parallel port, and you plugged the printer cable into
the other side of the dongle, and the printer and computer talked
as if the dongle weren't there. Only when you dinged the dongle
Just So would it dong back at you.
Why not just let them keep the software and have the use of it? Their
continued use of it costs you nothing, after all. Denying it to them
appears to be gratuitous vandalism.

"Vandalism" seems a strong term for "not giving the product
of my labor away for free." Unless you're part of the "property
is theft" crowd, of course -- in which case, why are you walking
around in stolen clothes?
Still, this era of software Stalinism [...]
> [even less rational rant snipped]
 
T

Twisted

"Vandalism" seems a strong term for "not giving the product
of my labor away for free."

I was referring to "forcibly taking away software he already has and
was using, though this usage continuing would cost you nothing".

What you proposed is analogous to if you let me see and make my own
copy (with my own materials and other resources) of a fancy china
plate you showed me and I had it for a while and ate off it sometimes,
and then one day you snuck into my house and smashed it -- even though
my eating off the plate I had didn't make *yours* dirty or stop you
using yours at the same time or anything like that.

Very unlike if you rented me your plate for a limited time, during
which time you didn't have it to use as there was only the one.

Notice how absurd all these painfully cretinous, inefficient, and
damaging ideas become when you recast them with everyday tangible
objects in place of software?
Unless you're part of the "property
is theft" crowd, of course -- in which case, why are you walking
around in stolen clothes?

Far from it -- I support strong property rights. Including my right to
bar you from entering my home and smashing my china plate simply
because I copied the fancy design on yours, and despite the fact that
my use of mine in no way diminishes your ability to use yours or
increases your costs in using yours. And likewise my CDs, my computer,
the software copies loaded onto my computer, ...
 
A

Andreas Leitgeb

Twisted said:
I was referring to "forcibly taking away software he already has and
was using, though this usage continuing would cost you nothing".

That's not quite true, practically, because by continued
ability by the customer to use that software, the "vendor"
would have to expect loss of future jobs.

I understand that this mindset is not compatible with yours,
and you call this attitude "stalinism", etc, but in the end
it's the customer who decides, whether these stalinistic
attitudes really pay.

Face it, at these times it unfortunately does pay for the
stalinist.
What you proposed is analogous to if you let me see and make my own
copy (with my own materials and other resources) of a fancy china
plate you showed me and I had it for a while and ate off it sometimes,
and then one day you snuck into my house and smashed it -- even though
my eating off the plate I had didn't make *yours* dirty or stop you
using yours at the same time or anything like that.

Again, this *does* pay (for the vendor), as long as consumers are
dumb enough (or have any other reasons) to re-borrow (for money)
a sample from exactly the same one who smashed the previous clone.

While government legalizes (in your example) the action of
smashing the plate, (actually, when borrowing his plate for
cloning, he already told you, that your clone would be smashed
remotely (thus without actually entering your home) after some
period of time...) the government doesn't force you to borrow
the same vendor's plate next time. If you do, knowing that it
will be broken a certain time later, then you're either not playing
with a full deck, OR you even might have convincing other reasons to
do so.

Based on your example, one such reason could be:
- you have a tendency of inadvertedly smashing them
yourself, and based on the expectation that you
have to re-clone one, anyway once in a while, that
vendor (in the sense of that he lends you his latest
sample for cloning, for which he takes a small fee) is
the cheapest source for samples. anyway you casually
are fed up of the old design, and want to clone a
new design each time you create a new plate - and
you're not the creative type to make a design on
your own. He's the only one within reach who offers
samples of your preference.
Far from it -- I support strong property rights.

The whole point of copyrights etc is, that these bytes on
your harddisk are *not* your property!. You always just
"borrow" them. And the vendor *does* care what you do
with it, because certain actions on your side might
impact negatively on the number of his customers and
thus the butter on his (really own) bread.

It doesn't make a difference, for the vendor, whether he lends
you something (and doesn't have it for the while), or if he lets
you copy it, and then finds no one else to lend it to (for money),
because every one else just copies it from you.

You could, of course, make an agreement with the vendor, that
he will not smash the plate, and that you may even lend on
your plate to others for copying, as long as these others
are willing to pay remuneration to the creator of the design.
Since you're not yet known as a Nobel prize winner, I assume
you haven't found a reliable alternative, non-stalinistic
model for remuneration

That all said, I agree with you, in that I also dislike this
practise being played on me, and that I avoid such vendors where
possible. Of course my PC's don't run windows nor MacOS, and on
my linux machines I don't use apps of which I don't have (or can
easily obtain) source code. I don't buy hardware that would require
proprietary drivers, either. Oh, and I did pay for some software
I used, sometimes on a voluntary base, and sometimes just the marginal
cost for a distribution medium e.g. as part of a magazine.
 
M

Martin Gregorie

Twisted said:
So if you ever need to print a document from this crippleware, you're
up the creek.
Nope. You could print through it.

This type of dongle used to be common. They had both make and female
D-25 connectors on them so a standard printer cable plugged into the
back of it. Its default action was to transfer print data and responses
transparently. I never used one at code level so I don't know how you
told it to handle dongle requests rather than pass stuff to the printer.
Why not just let them keep the software and have the use of it? Their
continued use of it costs you nothing, after all. Denying it to them
appears to be gratuitous vandalism.
If the software is part of your course material you wouldn't want to
give it away any more than you'd give away your lesson plans, instructor
manuals or presentation material. Besides, if you leave it enabled on
client machines you can guarantee that some cheapskate will demand free
support. Or are you suggesting that paid-for support could be a
worthwhile revenue stream? To a training organization rather than a
software supplier?
Not to mention, gratuitously making their continued use of the
software cost you something just to give you the ability to and an
excuse to charge them for it and control them like a dictator isn't
exactly very nice. Still, without the torture chambers, death camps,
and legions of doom, you aren't quite the tin Pol Pot you aspire to
be. Yet.
You do go off on irrelevant rants, don't you? Incredible.

Purely as an example I'm using a private tool that might form a training
aid as part of a paid-for course. As such its not for sale or use
outside the training organization. It belongs to the trainer. Nobody
gets to use it outside a paid-for course. These are two ways that merely
make certain that you take your property with you at the end of the
course. No dictators of secret police, just simple property ownership.
 
T

Twisted

That's not quite true, practically, because by continued
ability by the customer to use that software, the "vendor"
would have to expect loss of future jobs.

That may or may not actually be true. Regardless, it is not true that
this company is entitled to any particular hypothetical future
revenues. There is no right to profit enshrined in the constitution;
perhaps the right to try, but that's not the same thing.

Also, "loss of future jobs" makes it sound like this is a situation
where the users need this software regularly to do something, and it's
being provided on a kind of "pay per use" model rather than provided
free and open source or even sold on a per-copy basis. That's frankly
extortionate. I see no justification for charging such huge margins
for software per copy as you often see charged, let alone charging per
use, given that a software vendor's costs are not generally
proportional to use or even to copies in circulation. (Except to the
extent that they also operate a network service the software uses,
such as e.g. the World of Warcraft servers and game world. That
vendor's costs actually are proportional to usage, justifying their
per-month fees, though light users should really have the option of a
per-actual-chunk-of-time-spent-using-it payment plan too.)
I understand that this mindset is not compatible with yours,
and you call this attitude "stalinism", etc, but in the end
it's the customer who decides, whether these stalinistic
attitudes really pay.

No, it's the legislature, since they currently legislate that the
customer can either pay or do without and no other option is made
legal. If the legislature let perfectly interchangeable software be
marketed by anyone who wanted to, the market would then settle on a
price decided by the customers. (And that price would likely be
somewhere in the neighborhood of zero.)
Face it, at these times it unfortunately does pay for the
stalinist.

A symptom of bad legislation, not of stalinism being good.
Again, this *does* pay (for the vendor), as long as consumers are
dumb enough (or have any other reasons) to re-borrow (for money)
a sample from exactly the same one who smashed the previous clone.

Yes, so long as there's no law requiring that nobody else sell
interchangeable eating plates.

Actually, no, since if I make a replica with my own resources rather
than borrow yours, you breaking into my place and smashing my replica
is break and enter and vandalism. (If I borrowed yours and you broke
into my place and smashed it, on the other hand, it's just break and
enter.)

[snip some increasingly silly stuff]

Who would accept terms like these from a plate vendor?

Why does anyone accept terms like those from a software vendor,
especially when the per-copy costs of software are so much lower?

Why don't they have any alternative source of fully compatible
software that does the same thing?

Who do we blame for this?

How do we fix it, to get the economy running much more efficiently and
ensure the system ceases to reward perversities such as vendors making
a product and then expending additional effort, time, and expense to
deliberately degrade its utility?
Based on your example, one such reason could be:
- you have a tendency of inadvertedly smashing them
yourself, and based on the expectation that you
have to re-clone one...

Inapplicable to software. Software does not suffer from wear and tear.
If you're prone to damaging the installation on a machine of yours,
you do wisely to keep backups of that machine's contents and
configuration so you don't have to buy a new copy of anything if
something goes wrong, or lose any of your own otherwise-irreplaceable
data.
are fed up of the old design, and want to clone a
new design each time you create a new plate - and
you're not the creative type to make a design on
your own.

A valid reason for buying plates, selling them used, buying new
ones ... which is clearly not what you are describing. Destroying a
perfectly good plate is negative-sum. If it's to the advantage of one
party to do this to an object that some other party has and it is also
not illegal for them to do so then unless the object is a WMD or
something equally likely to make things worse rather than better when
used, the law is clearly broken.
He's the only one within reach who offers
samples of your preference.

Uh-oh. Monopoly alert! Another failure of the free market, probably
due to meddlesome legislators.
The whole point of copyrights etc is, that these bytes on
your harddisk are *not* your property!

Yes, they are. They're my electrons bought from the hydro company on
my disk platter bought from wherever I bought the drive from. Giving a
third party power over them just because they happen to resemble some
pattern of bytes they had earlier is ludicrous and violates my
property rights in my machine.
And the vendor *does* care what you do
with it, because certain actions on your side might
impact negatively on the number of his customers and
thus the butter on his (really own) bread.

GM *does* care what I do with a load of iron and some glass and other
materials because certain actions on my side (e.g. building a car with
these and then selling it) might impact negatively on the number of
GM's customers.

Can GM outlaw my building a car out of scrap? No. Should society
indulge GM in its wish that nobody but GM be able to make cars and
thereby compete with GM? No. Does it? No.

Why should it with any other manufacturer, whether of cars, or of
little plastic discs, or whatever?
It doesn't make a difference, for the vendor, whether he lends
you something (and doesn't have it for the while), or if he lets
you copy it, and then finds no one else to lend it to (for money),
because every one else just copies it from you.

If the vendor can't compete with free, then he should go into business
selling products with a marginal cost bigger than zero! OTOH, plenty
of vendors can compete with free. Red Hat sells Linux discs at a
profit. (Entirely aside their support-contract business, also
profitable.) Dasani sells bottled water for a per-bottle fee when most
of their potential customers, probably all, get either free or flat-
monthly-fee water from their kitchen tap that is just as good for
drinking.
Since you're not yet known as a Nobel prize winner, I assume
you haven't found a reliable alternative, non-stalinistic
model for remuneration

I don't need to to prove my point; Red Hat, Dasani, etc. all have
proven it already for me. So why reinvent the wheel?
 
T

Twisted

If the software is part of your course material you wouldn't want to
give it away any more than you'd give away your lesson plans, instructor
manuals or presentation material.

Why not? Where did you learn economics? Because everyone should be
warned away from there. You have on the one hand your scarce and
valuable expertise and talents, and on the other your cheap and easily
reproduced plans, manuals, software, and material. Furthermore,
preventing anyone ever competing with you on the latter by making
copies and undercutting your price is nontrivial -- ask the RIAA how
expensive and futile it can get. (15,433 lawsuits and counting ... and
still 600,000,000 more illicit copies out there to go ... and the
latter number actually is growing despite their efforts ...)

The sensible thing to do is to cheaply sell or even give away the
easily-duplicated stuff as a loss-leader to market your talent, and
charge for access to that.

=> You charge for one on one tuition or get hired to teach XYZ at a
learning institution based on your expertise and wind up with a
salary. The widely-distributed copies of the teaching materials
attract students, in the one case your customers and in the other your
employer's customers.

Give away what can be given away at no cost and charge for what's
scarce and that the freebies will automatically help promote.

There's really no sense in society not only tolerating suckier
business models but actually legislating that those using these
suckier business models will be subsidized by the government using tax
money to enforce said business models. Especially not in society doing
so in such a manner that those business models actually become
competitive with superior ones! It's one thing to give lame
individuals a tax-funded crutch. It's another to give free, taxpayer-
subsidized crutches to lame businesses. End corporate welfare now!
Besides, if you leave it enabled on
client machines you can guarantee that some cheapskate will demand free
support.

Don't provide free support. You're under no obligation to provide free
support, after all.
Or are you suggesting that paid-for support could be a
worthwhile revenue stream? To a training organization rather than a
software supplier?

No, paid-for on-site training by your instructors with their scarce
expertise is a worthwhile revenue stream. The software is not serious
competition for your instructors, not unless you've made some amazing
breakthroughs in AI recently and not made any public fanfare about
this achievement; the software may, however, be a cheap advertisement
for your instructors.

Not only not allowing but actively preventing its persistence
(nevermind its actual copying!) is denying yourself free advertising.
In fact, it's like paying to have a billboard advertising your key
product taken down that would likely have stayed standing for ages
otherwise, and that you were not being charged any rent to have stay
up, either.
Purely as an example I'm using a private tool that might form a training
aid as part of a paid-for course. As such its not for sale or use
outside the training organization. It belongs to the trainer. Nobody
gets to use it outside a paid-for course. These are two ways that merely
make certain that you take your property with you at the end of the
course. No dictators of secret police, just simple property ownership.

Except that it isn't. A copy remaining on a client machine does not
deprive you of the copies you take with you where you go. Making it
"not for sale or use outside the organization" serves no logical
purpose I can think of other than to gratuitously impoverish other
people at the cost of ADDED WORK ON YOUR PART. It removes something
that those people might find useful to have around, and that would
remind them of your training services. Those services might come in
handy again someday, where the software alone does not suffice, and
they'd be immediate repeat customers. If instead you act all nasty and
do gratuitous stuff, treat their computers like you have some kind of
title to them telling them what they can and cannot do with them or
actually destroying data on them yourself, and charging them for the
privilege, I wouldn't blame them if they don't beat a path to your
door the next time they have need of similar expertise, and instead
look elsewhere for it!
 
A

Andreas Leitgeb

Twisted said:
That may or may not actually be true. Regardless, it is not true that
this company is entitled to any particular hypothetical future
revenues.

That wasn't my point in this particular answer.
it's point was to show, that the vendor *thinks* that continued
use of his software will/might/could cut on his future income, and
thus he makes the software that is already installed there, unusable.

He *might* be wrong with his thinking, in that continued usability
of that software by his clients *might* even help him get future jobs
there, but from his very point of view, he *thinks* that it's the
other way round.

If you *think* it will be a hot sunny day, you probably leave your
raincoat at home when going for a walk, and then it might start to
rain cats and dogs, and afterwards who damn yourself for not having
taken your raincoat with you. But you wouldn't want government to
rule that you must take your raincoat with you ...

This was about the situation, where alternative business models
of your liking are indeed feasible.

The rest of this posting deals with the other ones.
[snip some increasingly silly stuff] ditto

Why does anyone accept terms like those from a software vendor,
especially when the per-copy costs of software are so much lower?

Because it's part of an agreement... and I expect you'll now
split hairs again, whether one can make an agreement with a stone.
If law wasn't there to make accepting such agreements the only
legal way for the customer to use the software, then there wouldn't
be any off-the-shelf-software (or at most only a marginal subset thereof)
It's not that most would be open and free then, but rather non-existing.

Or alternately, the shops would have to hire someone to negotiate all
the agreements and have you identify and sign the agreement. Of course
he wouldn't be willing to accept a lower price or extra levels of
freedom any more than a rock would and the price for hiring him would
be silently added to the agreement-fee for each product. Is that
more to your liking?


If law was changed to make copying principially legal, then these
vendors would adapt to a new one, which isn't necessarily more to
your likings: they would program their software such, that it
requires pay per use (that is rent). you'd then be able to copy
it as you wish, but whichever copy you put in your drive it will
require some payment to use the software. Only a marginal number
of vendors could/would adapt to business models like redhat.
One reason why there already exist pay-per-use models is, that
these vendors even now don't trust the users to comply with current
copyright-laws.

Copyright law isn't there to make software-prices high, it's there
to *enable* less complicated ways (and thus of course cheaper ways!)
for distribution of software that the vendor just doesn't want to
give away for free.


Oh, and finally, unless the copy I make of some inventor's idea will
cause remuneration to go to the inventor, it is immoral. If instead
I copy my own idea, and take less remuneration for it, myself, then
that's fair competition. (so much for GM caring if I build my own car
rather than buying theirs)

You naively think that, after removing something of your dislike,
the space wouldn't be filled by something even more to your (and
other's) dislike.
 
T

Twisted

That wasn't my point in this particular answer.
it's point was to show, that the vendor *thinks* that continued
use of his software will/might/could cut on his future income, and
thus he makes the software that is already installed there, unusable.

He *might* be wrong with his thinking, in that continued usability
of that software by his clients *might* even help him get future jobs
there, but from his very point of view, he *thinks* that it's the
other way round.

You have failed to provide a justification for society supporting the
vendor and helping enable and enforce this behavior.

Big chemical companies have an incentive to dump toxic waste willy-
nilly. Does society permit them to do so, or severely restrict how and
where they can dispose of waste and how it must be treated beforehand?

You cannot justify something with "it's in the interests of this
business here that has thus-and-such market cap".

Why does society not only condone but actually assist business
pollution of our property rights in our hardware and the arrangements
of bits resident on that hardware? That is precisely what it is --
pollution, taking our stuff and by artifice degrading its value, and
creating a toxic environment with ripple-on harmful effects besides
(e.g. orphan works, vendor lock-in, lack of competition, the need to
seek all sorts of permission before you are allowed to innovate or be
creative...all well-documented problems with copyright and patent.)
If you *think* it will be a hot sunny day, you probably leave your
raincoat at home when going for a walk, and then it might start to
rain cats and dogs, and afterwards who damn yourself for not having
taken your raincoat with you. But you wouldn't want government to
rule that you must take your raincoat with you ...

You're right. Government should stay out of it. Instead government
steps in and enforces that since some big businesses don't take their
raincoats with them, and "big business is doubleplusgood!!!1!11one",
therefore rain is outlawed! Despite a) the obvious impossibility of
perfectly enforcing this decree, b) that even partial enforcement is
damned expensive and difficult (e.g. doming over every major urban
area), and c) even partial enforcement tramples on rights (e.g. what
happens to astronomers, air travel, people who actually like the rain,
people with gardens whose tapwater is metered and that can't afford to
use extra tapwater to replace the lost rainfall, and various forms of
wireless communications if they dome over every major urban area?)
Because it's part of an agreement...

I'll rephrase. Why does anyone "agree" to such lopsided "agreements"
instead of simply shopping elsewhere?
If law wasn't there to make accepting such agreements the only
legal way for the customer to use the software

How fortunate for the everyday people of limited means that indeed
that law isn't there then!

Read 17 USC section 117(a)(1) sometime and enlighten yourself. You are
permitted by law to make private copies as part of normal use of
software, e.g. installation and the transient copies in RAM. No
special permission from the copyright holder is required; only that
you purchased a copy legitimately. Which you (hypothetically) did at
the retail outlet. Having purchased the copy, you may now use it as
you see fit without any need for permission from the copyright holder,
save that such permission is needed by law if you intend to distribute
copies, and perhaps if you intend to make private copies beyond those
the software automatically requires or makes in normal use and prudent
backups.

The software vendor has no need of the onerous "license terms" to
protect their (illegitimate) interest in preventing free copying;
copyright law does that anyway. Or at least tries.
It's not that most would be open and free then, but rather non-existing.
Evidence?

If law was changed to make copying principially legal, then these
vendors would adapt to a new one, which isn't necessarily more to
your likings: they would program their software such, that it
requires pay per use (that is rent).

Pay per use is even less justified on economic or public-policy
grounds than pay per copy. If the law made copying principally legal
it would certainly make sense to make hacking and tinkering to work
around attempts to enforce pay per use legal as well. Pay per use then
would, as it should, be viable only for stuff like Everquest where you
use a vendor's server resources by using the software. Without payment
they refuse access to the server. Without access to the server the
software's not very useful. Working around that requires actual theft
(of services), i.e. costing the vendor something without paying them
to cover their added expenses due to your usage, and theft would
obviously still be against the law.

Circumventing a gratuitous use of a vendor's server not intrinsically
needed to perform the software's function should however be possible
without compromising the software's function. In the simplest case of
a gratuitous phone-home enforcement check, you'd just decompile the
software and figure out how to spoof an "authorized" response, then
cut the vendor out of the loop entirely. Their server resources are
not consumed so there's nothing you're costing them with each use to
justify them demanding payment any more anyway.

This would be legal if copyright, patent, and the DMCA were
eliminated. It should be legal.
Only a marginal number of vendors could/would adapt to business models like redhat.
Evidence?

Copyright law isn't there to make software-prices high, it's there
to *enable* less complicated ways (and thus of course cheaper ways!)
for distribution of software

That's mythological bullturds. It enables no such thing. The cheapest
way to distribute software, also spreading the burden evenly across
its users and making it touch each one extremely lightly indeed, is
called BitTorrent. If your theory were correct, copyright law would
have resulted in BT being the predominant means of distribution of
software. In fact, BT IS the predominant means of distribution of one
type of software -- free software, which has been copylefted, that is.
So in fact copyright law RETARDS less complicated (and cheaper) ways
of distributing software. Demonstrable, incontrovertible FACT. You are
wrong. YHL. HTH. HAND.
Oh, and finally, unless the copy I make of some inventor's idea will
cause remuneration to go to the inventor, it is immoral.

Incorrect. Alice invents something. Bob implements it using his own
time, money, and materials. Bob's doing so has clearly not deprived
Alice of anything. In fact, Bob may do this in secret; and what Alice
doesn't know doesn't hurt her. No harm, no foul. No foul, no
immorality. This too is airtight logic, unless you redefine "immoral"
to be "whatever I don't like" instead of "what malicious or
irresponsibile actions threaten or cause measurable harm to a
nonconsenting other".
You naively think that, after removing something of your dislike,
the space wouldn't be filled by something even more to your (and
other's) dislike.

You have no evidence to support your theory that it would be. And by
the way, you misspelled "naïve".
 
C

CatBurglerV8

Java Media JMStudio uses USB memory very Nicely
and drops it clean if you set the Preferences
with a path to it.
CatBurglerV8
 

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