Help, where to start learning Java

[Luc The Perverse]

Actually I think interaction is a lot more important than visually
appealing features. Most visual stuff is, certainly in the early stages,
going to be disappointing imo. However, if they can interact with
programs
they made themselves, they'll find it more interesting. They will want to
make changes to the code and see how that affects the interaction. At
least that's what I found interesting. I could never see an example or
exercise without wanting to "improve" it.

For example I believe a program showing a static picture and playing a
sound file less appealing - and a lot harder to make - than a text-only
"guess the number" game. So interactivity is the key. And of course
games
are interactive, but they shouldn't be presented as "computer games",
because that brings up visions of Doom and The Sims.

Perhaps you are right.

But there is a stigma attached to programs that run in the console window.

But it doesn't have to be one way or the other. The user interaction could
already be coded by the professor, and the students need only write the
interactive part. The coding part for the students would be approximately
the same difficulty, and may even be easier if the interaction function is
Play

But on the other hand - the instructor could provide a "guess the number
interface", and only require the students to provide the code which allows
them to make it run on the same order of complexity as if they had written a
text based game.

 

[Andrew Thompson]

Perhaps you are right.

But there is a stigma attached to programs that run in the console window.

For good reason. That is *so* last millenium, and
to a younger person, appears as if it is 'some old installer'[1].

[1] On the basis that a command line interface is only likely to
have been seen by a younger computer user, during the installation
of software, and then only old (very old) software.

But it doesn't have to be one way or the other. The user interaction could
already be coded by the professor, and the students need only write the
interactive part. The coding part for the students would be approximately
the same difficulty, and may even be easier if the interaction function is
Play

Was that not the concept of ..'logo'[2] or whatever it was/is?

[2] Quick Googling indicates..
"LOGO computer language created by Seymour Papert in 1967"

Has LOGO come up during this thread? (Sorry, I've only
been 'half listenning').

But on the other hand - the instructor could provide a "guess the number
interface", and only require the students to provide the code which allows
them to make it run on the same order of complexity as if they had written a
text based game.

...of course. I am fond of imploring people around these parts
to figure how to 'do it from the command line'. But then, I
would not recommend usenet as a suitable forum for children
in any case ( mostly because they could observe just how
'child-like' - in the worst possible ways, adults can be .

 

[Luc The Perverse]

Perhaps you are right.

But there is a stigma attached to programs that run in the console
window.

For good reason. That is *so* last millenium, and
to a younger person, appears as if it is 'some old installer'[1].

LOL. I refused to run apache webserver on a windows machine once because I
couldn't close the window and remove it from the taskbar. System tray is
ok for something like that, but not an open window! Although I found one
worse - my dad's printer uses a driver which always has a window open in the
taskbar. To me that would be just cause for returning it. (I'm definitely
deviating from the conversation now.)

But it doesn't have to be one way or the other. The user interaction
could already be coded by the professor, and the students need only write
the interactive part. The coding part for the students would be
approximately the same difficulty, and may even be easier if the
interaction function is Play

Was that not the concept of ..'logo'[2] or whatever it was/is?

Has LOGO come up during this thread? (Sorry, I've only
been 'half listenning').

No it has not to the best of my knowledge. Perhaps that was the point of
LOGO, but computers and languages have evolved greatly since the days of
LOGO.

..of course. I am fond of imploring people around these parts
to figure how to 'do it from the command line'. But then, I
would not recommend usenet as a suitable forum for children
in any case ( mostly because they could observe just how
'child-like' - in the worst possible ways, adults can be .

I really don't have any idea what you are talking about in this last
sentence.

I think the command line is highly undervalued, but the point is to teach
programming however possible. If you teach kids how to program, they will
be able to adapt to the command line, but if you lose them because they are
not interested, then it will be a pointless endevour.

What any of that has to do with usenet though . . I'm not sure

 

[Chris Uppal]

I do think that they should be led to create interactive programs instead
of the traditional "hello world" or recursive combinations.

If such matters interest you then you'd probably find it rewarding to look at
Squeak and Croquet (which are technically related, but used in different ways
for different things).

-- chris