Larry W... out of work ?? Impossible... or...

S

stu7

+
...or is it ?

Lets look at what are likely the top reasons his book
company would have laid Larry off... well, first things
first... book sales down... but why ? Isn't PERL the most
popular thing to come around since email ? Sure... but,
who is it popular with ?

I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.
Since then, of course, Perl has grown immensely, and to
anyone willing to look, it is obvious that Perl now offers
an excellent programming framework, and endless specialized
support modules - Perl has, in addition, become a world effort...
but, to a commercial venture - a book publisher, for instance,
Perl is a gooey spit-out... it's a top grade product, with the
unfortunate reputation of being an internet no-no... why ?
Perl is NOT a professional offering... trying to make it
on a commercial level... there simply are no official
repesentatives of Perl - to anyone looking for help, we either
"buy a book", or, more often, [consult an internet Perl user
group]... this is where the goo gets sticky.
I would guess there aren't one-in-twenty prospective perl
users, who, after consulting one of the "internet Perl sources",
has had the positive response they expected, or even remains
very interested in using or learning Perl thereafter... goodbye
Perl reputation... Perl, suddenly, doesn't have any commercial
viability, when all it means is getting berated by a group of
self-styled technique experts, "discussion leaders", and, again,
anything BUT the [support people] any newcomer might expect
for real computer programming material.

There are other serious issues with Perl, not the least of
which was the prosecution of one of it's principals for "hacking"...
this charge never seemed entirely warranted, but the story doesn't
make Perl any more attractive, commercially.

Perl, I feel, remains unappreciated by most people, whether
or not they have used it extensively... but the real point of
this message was to bail out Larry W... or at least explain his
plight, and offer a possible answer. I, for one, find it
unlikely he would sacrifice economic security for the sake of
developing a new Perl framework... maybe, part of the new Perl
was to exclude some of the amateurish, stiflingly ineffacious
"expert documentation", or developmental directions...
...otherwise, it can't really be argued - Perl has real
usefulness, and there are likely endless business ventures who
could offer L.W. substantial monetary aid in exchange for his
expertise... but what is the real issue here ?
Is it even Perl related ? Is it open-source versus MicroSoft ?
Is it possible one gigantic freeware package is simply enough to
expect of one person in their lives ?
Linus got a job... why shouldn't Larry ? :)
I don't think either of them would, or should, opt for
dependency on an uncertain thing like the WWW/Internet... why
the whole Dot/Com blowout, do we imagine ? Its the same problem...
no permanence, solidity, or lasting value there... a boom market
with it's own built-in bust clientele.
I hope L.W. finds his way out of whatever problem it is,
sooner than later. Perl is perhaps as valuable as a lesson to
those who (wrongly) accept the Internet as an opportunity it
never proved itself to be.
 
K

Keith Keller

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

+
...or is it ?

[many many lines snipped]

You must be out of work, as well, to have wasted all that time
writing so much tripe. Good luck finding a new job.

(or perhaps you're upset at your perceived mistreatment by some
other folks in the newsgroup?...)

- --keith

- --
(e-mail address removed)-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
alt.os.linux.slackware FAQ: http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/cgi-bin/fom

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAj8ctscACgkQhVcNCxZ5ID/8zQCfdeP6aiwmkyRyvLL0Itp+IZXs
UxIAoJGXIfFibk9ivZChSU8yHMcIhHs2
=WV7h
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
M

Martien Verbruggen

(e-mail address removed) (stu7) wrote:

} I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
} and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
} I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.

Wait a second -- IRC didn't appear until 1988 and Perl came out in 1987..

This guy is not only utterly clueless, he's also a troll. Ignore him.

Martien
 
R

Randal L. Schwartz

stu7> I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
stu7> and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
stu7> I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.

This is your first factual mistake, and it only goes downhill from
here. Perl has been around since long before IP packets were flowing
near your sorry hiney.

The rest of the post is just the usual FUD from someone who has been
burned. Pay no heed.

Nice try. Move along. Nothing to see here.

print "Just another Perl hacker,";
 
S

stu7

This is your first factual mistake, and it only goes downhill from
here. Perl has been around since long before IP packets were flowing
near your sorry hiney.
*** ...hiney... this is serious. Randal - if you even are the
*** real Randal - my post was intended to be both complimentary,
*** and as accurate as possible... perhaps you were wrongly
*** offended by my reference to yourself ? I suppose anyone
*** who read the post would see it was an attempt to defend
*** Perl... maybe you only read the whiney replies ?
The rest of the post is just the usual FUD from someone who has been
burned. Pay no heed.
*** Who got burned ?
*** Im no more put off by the latest batch of non-replies here
*** than any other time, and just try to ignore them... that was
*** in fact a major topic of my post - the destabilizing effect
*** of the massive amount of irreverent or malicious replies which
*** fill the Usenet groups... didn't you care to comment on this ?
*** Is it an embarrassing issue to take sides on ? No problem.
*** Im sorry.
Nice try. Move along. Nothing to see here.
*** Im pretty sure it was the wrongly offended thing now :)
*** Im still not sure what a FUD is. Perhaps another time.
 
S

stu7

*** ah... it's eric again... and same complaint as before.
*** The problem eric is, for one, I DID NOT ADDRESS MY POST
*** TO YOU... dont take it so personally ? And... you
*** evidently had nothing to say... not before... not now...
*** so far as the topic of my posts... so what is it we are
*** saying here ? Oh right... you're not going to reply, now
*** that you know Im a
***
*** At the outside, it is possible I was too eager to jump
*** on your non-reply in particular, and you may in fact
*** have intended no more than to point out a problem you
*** were having reading my post... but Email is more suited
*** for personalized problems like that, rather than adding
*** content to the newsgroup.
*** FYI - there is no problem with my quoting style whatsoever...
*** it works fine on Google_ it is in fact a style I was taught
*** to use in an Email/NewsReader class... I do apologize if
*** it causes problems on your system, but I suspect this is
*** a laptop you're using... so most web pages wont work for
*** you... again, it isn't especially relevant to me, as a poster
*** with a question, to address issues like this, although I am
*** sympathetic... really.

*** Or... if you dont like the facts of this matter, try to
*** follow this example :) Suppose you were on vacation,
*** and stopped to ask directions... and the person you
*** asked said something like - "Hey... whats with the
*** flowers on the shirt ? Definitely bad... and your
*** wife is kinda fat and dumpy too... we dont like that
*** around here... and, yea, I know how to get to where you
*** asked about, but Im not going to tell you !".
*** Sure, thats a little exaggereated... but really, it is
*** almost as irrelevant as your style critique of my perl
*** question.
*** We dont really have a problem, now do we eric ? No.
*** Please stop pretending :)
***
*** Did I expect a serious answer from you ? No... I
*** was hiding in the other room, hoping you didnt see it :)
 
A

A. Sinan Unur

(e-mail address removed) (stu7) wrote in
*** ah... it's eric again... and same complaint as before.
*** The problem eric is, for one, I DID NOT ADDRESS MY POST
*** TO YOU... dont take it so personally ?

You posted on a public forum. Everyone can then reply to what he/she sees
as relevant.
*** And... you
*** evidently had nothing to say... not before... not now...
*** so far as the topic of my posts... so what is it we are
*** saying here ?

There is no topic to your post. You have a chip on your shoulder, and
your claim that you were around when Perl 1.0 was announced (in 1987)
seems dubious.
*** At the outside, it is possible I was too eager to jump
*** on your non-reply in particular, and you may in fact
*** have intended no more than to point out a problem you
*** were having reading my post... but Email is more suited
*** for personalized problems like that, rather than adding
*** content to the newsgroup.

It is not personal problem of Eric. He was kind enough to point out to
you that your use of sequences of characters commonly used when quoting
someone else makes it hard for readers to figure out difference between
original content and quotations in your post. Put simply, your posting
style is misleading in that regard.
*** FYI - there is no problem with my quoting style whatsoever...
*** it works fine on Google_ it is in fact a style I was taught
*** to use in an Email/NewsReader class...

Please mention where this class is given so people know to avoid it.
I do apologize if
*** it causes problems on your system, but I suspect this is
*** a laptop you're using... so most web pages wont work for
*** you... again, it isn't especially relevant to me, as a poster
*** with a question, to address issues like this, although I am
*** sympathetic... really.

What is this supposed to mean? I have been using portables and laptops
almost exclusively since 1993, and I have no idea what you mean by "most
pages won't work" for laptop users (putting aside the fact that this
discussion is taking place in a UseNet group).

In any case, as a poster with a question, it is your responsibility to
adhere to the conventions of the forum you are posting to if you want
people to take the time and effort to respond to your questions.
*** around here... and, yea, I know how to get to where you
*** asked about, but Im not going to tell you !".

Rude people deserve that.

Sinan.
 
S

stu7

*** I can accept that. Likely, it was the newest release
*** being announced_ maybe even the actual version 1.0 .
*** I only recalled first hearing about Perl on that
*** occassion, and trying it then.
 
S

stu7

*** I can accept that. Likely, it was the newest release
*** being announced_ maybe even the actual version 1.0 .
*** I only recalled first hearing about Perl on that
*** occassion, and trying it then.
 
S

stu7

*** it wasnt wasted time... I made my point... what was yours ?
*** No Keith, Im not upset - rather, I tried to point out that
*** the preponderance of insult replies (such as your own), and
*** other "replies" on these groups, which likewise address
*** neither the questions nor issues addressed in the poster's
*** inquiries, have been responsible for Usenet's declining
*** reputation as a useable resource for serious programmers.
*** In particular, I was using this example to show how PERL -
*** which has largely been known and distributed via the same
*** Internet medium - has suffered enormously from it's
*** association with these "newgroups" and other services.
yikes boy, his post meandered a bit, but he made some sense. i think
you're the type of poster he was referring to :)

*** Haha... meandered... I like that ! Well, no, it wasn't
*** critically edited... it was admittedly my emotional response
*** to this recent (to me) news of Larry W's job plight.
 
A

Alasdair Allan

stu7 said:
*** FYI - there is no problem with my quoting style whatsoever...
*** it works fine on Google_

Google is not usenet, usenet is not the web, it has nothing to do
with the web except that it uses the same wires and there are some
web interfaces into usent (and some usenet interfaces into the
web for some odd and screwball values of "interfaces").
*** it is in fact a style I was taught to use in an Email/NewsReader
*** class...

If you took a class in how to use email and usenet, may I respectfully
suggest you haven't been around the net long enough to hold an opinion
on what constitutes good style?

Stylistically usenet settled down sometime in the early 80's, well before
the great renaming in '86. There weren't any classes on how to use net
related things back then, we all just had to pick it up as we went along,
in alot of cases, we has to write the tools to do the stuff as went along.

Your quoting convention is wierd, trust me. No don't bother, see
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html and take their word
for it... specifically section 3.1

3.1 Which character should I use to mark the quoted text?

Use the "Greater-Than" character (">"). This character is recognized as
a quotationmark by almost every newsreader and is mentioned in the
netiquette as such for technical reasons (Son-Of-RFC 1036 and
successors).
*** I do apologize if it causes problems on your system, but I suspect
*** this is a laptop you're using... so most web pages wont work for
*** you... again, it isn't especially relevant to me, as a poster
*** with a question, to address issues like this, although I am
*** sympathetic... really.

The sheer lack of knowledge that this paragraph hints at is mind
boggling... totally disregarding that this is usenet, not the web,
why on Earth shouldn't web pages work on a laptop? What does the
harware have to do with anything?

Al.
 
S

Steve Allan

Let me suggest a counter-analogy. Suppose you're walking down a sidewalk
in a neighborhood you're familiar with. A car pulls up with the radio
blaring and honks repeatedly at you. When you go over to see what his
problem is, he says, "Hey, I need to get to 4th and Broad. Tell me how
to get there. Now come on, make it snappy!" And then he tosses a
cigarette butt out of his car at your feet.

Maybe you'll help him, maybe you won't. Nobody would blame you for not
helping him and just walking away. But then suppose you said to him, "You
know, people would be more likely to help you get places if you would
turn down your radio and not honk at them, and to say words like
'please' and 'thank you'". And then this driver went ballistic, ripping
into you, calling you childish and saying "You don't own this street!
Who do you think you are? I'll honk my horn any time I want -- at 3am if
I feel like it!"

Well, how would you feel about a driver who so thoroughly ignored social
conventions like that?

Now *that* is what I call a great analogy! I hope this finds its way
into the posting guidelines.
 
S

stu7

*** My original post, included below, was both
*** sincere and accurate... in my estimation, the
*** problem addressed will not change without serious
*** improvements in the way Perl is either presented
*** or supported.
***
*** The fact that "Sinan Unar","Keith Keller",
*** "Martien Verbruggen", "Eric Roode", or "Gregory
*** Toomey", all got together to harass me, and belittle
*** my well meant post, should be taken as a positive
*** affirmation of what I was saying... this is how
*** these people spend their time - trying to uphold
*** their private fantasy of importance as "newsgroup
*** workers", and aimlessly criticizing those who come
*** to the groups looking for help, or otherwise fail
*** to offer proper adoration of their sick little
*** cabal of deadbeat style whines. Nothing useful
*** or factual was offered by any of these problem posters_
*** but then, thats an assumption.
*** I was a little surprised to see anyone named
*** randal schwartz jump on this teetering bandwagon
*** of jeering spammers... isnt he supposed to be one of
*** the good guys ?

+
Larry W... out of work ?? Impossible... or...
...or is it ?

Lets look at what are likely the top reasons his book
company would have laid Larry off... well, first things
first... book sales down... but why ? Isn't PERL the most
popular thing to come around since email ? Sure... but,
who is it popular with ?

I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.
Since then, of course, Perl has grown immensely, and to
anyone willing to look, it is obvious that Perl now offers
an excellent programming framework, and endless specialized
support modules - Perl has, in addition, become a world effort...
but, to a commercial venture - a book publisher, for instance,
Perl is a gooey spit-out... it's a top grade product, with the
unfortunate reputation of being an internet no-no... why ?
Perl is NOT a professional offering... trying to make it
on a commercial level... there simply are no official
repesentatives of Perl - to anyone looking for help, we either
"buy a book", or, more often, [consult an internet Perl user
group]... this is where the goo gets sticky.
I would guess there aren't one-in-twenty prospective perl
users, who, after consulting one of the "internet Perl sources",
has had the positive response they expected, or even remains
very interested in using or learning Perl thereafter... goodbye
Perl reputation... Perl, suddenly, doesn't have any commercial
viability, when all it means is getting berated by a group of
self-styled technique experts, "discussion leaders", and, again,
anything BUT the [support people] any newcomer might expect
for real computer programming material.

There are other serious issues with Perl, not the least of
which was the prosecution of one of it's principals for "hacking"...
this charge never seemed entirely warranted, but the story doesn't
make Perl any more attractive, commercially.

Perl, I feel, remains unappreciated by most people, whether
or not they have used it extensively... but the real point of
this message was to bail out Larry W... or at least explain his
plight, and offer a possible answer. I, for one, find it
unlikely he would sacrifice economic security for the sake of
developing a new Perl framework... maybe, part of the new Perl
was to exclude some of the amateurish, stiflingly ineffacious
"expert documentation", or developmental directions...
...otherwise, it can't really be argued - Perl has real
usefulness, and there are likely endless business ventures who
could offer L.W. substantial monetary aid in exchange for his
expertise... but what is the real issue here ?
Is it even Perl related ? Is it open-source versus MicroSoft ?
Is it possible one gigantic freeware package is simply enough to
expect of one person in their lives ?
Linus got a job... why shouldn't Larry ? :)
I don't think either of them would, or should, opt for
dependency on an uncertain thing like the WWW/Internet... why
the whole Dot/Com blowout, do we imagine ? Its the same problem...
no permanence, solidity, or lasting value there... a boom market
with it's own built-in bust clientele.
I hope L.W. finds his way out of whatever problem it is,
sooner than later. Perl is perhaps as valuable as a lesson to
those who (wrongly) accept the Internet as an opportunity it
never proved itself to be.
 
A

A. Sinan Unur

(e-mail address removed) (stu7) wrote in
*** The fact that "Sinan Unar","Keith Keller",

Hmmmmm ... That is 'Unur'.
*** "Martien Verbruggen", "Eric Roode", or "Gregory
*** Toomey", all got together to harass me, and belittle
*** my well meant post

Maybe you don't like being called on your misrepresentations. Nothing I
can do about that.

....
*** I was a little surprised to see anyone named
*** randal schwartz jump on this teetering bandwagon
*** of jeering spammers... isnt he supposed to be one of
*** the good guys ?

The fact that everyone but you is using his real name indicates
something.
 
S

stu7

*** I took a second look at this remark, and noticed - it isnt
*** just cutesy and spammie, but almost hostile. I guess really
*** it's in the playground level profanity category, so OK :)
***
*** A slogan... thats what Perl needs... something like,
*** "Real men, using real playground level profanities, as they
*** build an exciting new language_ working against all odds,
*** in a world that just didnt seem to care".
*** I dunno how this is going to go over with hollywood, but
*** dont say I didnt try. :)
***
*** No_ Im just kidding... I guess its the other people who
*** were serious. OK, Im done.
 
E

Eric J. Roode

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

(e-mail address removed) (stu7) wrote in
*** There simply were no style issues addressed in my original
*** post. Answering with a non-answer... although it is
*** a popular recreation here... isnt any more useful or
*** appreciated.

That's fine. Do what you want. If you refuse to learn couth, there's
nothing that I can do about it, and I won't waste any more of my time
trying. If you need help with a Perl issue, don't expect an answer from
me. And I expect that I won't be the only one.

You may not care. That's fine -- I won't care either.

- --
Eric
$_ = reverse sort qw p ekca lre Js reh ts
p, $/.r, map $_.$", qw e p h tona e; print

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBPx9Iv2PeouIeTNHoEQJEwwCdGXplF443UHAR4XxTu7g/x8PmlE4An3w9
5J9ItrA+cPtfCu6ZkPK8zA77
=qjny
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
A

Alasdair Allan

stu7 said:
*** I didnt post here to be style-critiqued...

Then you should have used a standard style so that your wierd and off the
wall style didn't distract so much from you original point, which I now
forget.

Al.
 

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