Moving to new form of usenet ideas?

[Jon Slaughter]

Sorry for all the cross posting but I'm interesting in getting a serious
discussion about how usenet has become lately.

Many people are moving away from usenet because of all the spam and cooks
that have been showing up. The rate of spammer seem to be growing
exponentially(ok, not really but it feels like it).

I think maybe its time to do something about it. What I'd like to see happen
is an "upgrade" to usenet. I do not like th forum based communiations that
has sprung up lately but since it solves many of usenet's shortcommings I
believe that will will take over.

If many people feel the same way then maybe we can move on to something
better and increase the efficiency and productivity that usenet was meant
for.

Some ideas I have are:

1. Cook repellent - Some method to prevent cooks from interrupting normal
flow. Either having a voting scheme or some type of identifying means to
either completely remove them or at least make it easier to avoid them.

2. Spam repellent - Similar to Cooks.

3. Meta data - Have the ability to directly include graphics and things like
TeX into messages. For those that do not want to view it they can disable it
or have some other means to see it.

4. Specific tools for groups - Different groups have different needs for
communication. Mathematics groups need to efficiently communicate
mathematical formulas while electronics need to communicate schematics.

5. Moderation - Potentially give regular users of the group the ability to
"quasi-moderate" or in general just have a wide range of options to have
more control over groups(But not to much).

6. Non-anomality or some way to slow down spammers. Maybe better routing
data and such.

7. Potentially "Backwards compatible" with usenet - have the ability to surf
usenet with the same client to help make a smoother transition.
----

In any case this is extremely preliminary and just some thoughts. It seems
that usenet has started to go down the drain. Hopefully there are those out
there that are interested in keeping it alive. I'm thinking something very
similar to usenet but with just more "features".

If enough people are interested in doing this then maybe we can put
something together. All ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[Jonathan Mcdougall]

Sorry for all the cross posting but I'm interesting in getting a serious
discussion about how usenet has become lately.

Usenet is usenet. What you want is a discussion forum. There are
plenty
of implementations available freely that you may modify to suit your
needs.

Please, don't cross-post to unrelated newsgroups and understand that
you are currently part of this "spam" category. Time to use this
"spam-repellent" on yourself.


Jonathan

 

[Jon Slaughter]

Usenet is usenet. What you want is a discussion forum. There are
plenty
of implementations available freely that you may modify to suit your
needs.

I'm trying to see if the community is interested in moving into something
better.

Please, don't cross-post to unrelated newsgroups and understand that
you are currently part of this "spam" category. Time to use this
"spam-repellent" on yourself.

Hmm... But yet its ok for you to do it? I knew someone would say such a
thing but I guess you rather me post individually to each group?

Fortunately there is a difference between what I posted and spam. I do not
in general post to multiple groups and I am not posting an irrelevant
message or trying to sell a product or waste peoples time. What I am asking
is relevant to all those that use usenet. It is a serious question please
respond with a serious answer.

And hell, if you hate cross posting then please don't do it yourself.... it
makes you look like a hypocrit.

 

[Jon Slaughter]

Fortunately there is a difference between what I posted and spam. I do

not in general post to multiple groups and I am not posting an irrelevant
message or trying to sell a product or waste peoples time. What I am
asking is relevant to all those that use usenet. It is a serious question
please respond with a serious answer.

Don't get me wrong though. Maybe I am the only one concerned here and maybe
I am wasting everyone's time... but compared to rest of the spam thats a
chance I'm willing to take.

 

[Guest]

I'm trying to see if the community is interested in moving into something
better.

Most of us using the groups you have posted to are what people would
call tech-savvy, if we did not consider usenet good enough when weighing
all the pros and cons compared with the alternatives we would have moved
to something "better" long ago.

Hmm... But yet its ok for you to do it? I knew someone would say such a
thing but I guess you rather me post individually to each group?

A necessary evil in his case, and multiposting is even worse than cross-
posting.

Fortunately there is a difference between what I posted and spam. I do not
in general post to multiple groups and I am not posting an irrelevant
message or trying to sell a product or waste peoples time. What I am asking
is relevant to all those that use usenet. It is a serious question please
respond with a serious answer.

The most common definition of SPAM that I have seen is undesired mail/
messages, and yours fall in that category. You claim that your post is
relevant to comp.lang.c++ but I can not see anything in your post that
have anything to do with C++.

In my experience the biggest problem with usenet is not traditional SPAM
(maybe because my newsserver have a good SPAM filter, what do I know)
but rather the many irrelevant posts. Few of those are made with any
"ill" intent (often it is just people who do not know any better) but
they still lowers the signal to noise ratio.

For those who can not stand some noise every now and then there are the
moderated groups like comp.lang.c++.moderated, but they you will also
have to live with the consequences of posing in a moderated newsgroup.

 

[Rick Decker]

Sorry for all the cross posting but I'm interesting in getting a serious
discussion about how usenet has become lately.

Many people are moving away from usenet because of all the spam and cooks
that have been showing up. The rate of spammer seem to be growing
exponentially(ok, not really but it feels like it).

I think maybe its time to do something about it. What I'd like to see happen
is an "upgrade" to usenet. I do not like th forum based communiations that
has sprung up lately but since it solves many of usenet's shortcommings I
believe that will will take over.

If many people feel the same way then maybe we can move on to something
better and increase the efficiency and productivity that usenet was meant
for.

Some ideas I have are:

1. Cook repellent - Some method to prevent cooks from interrupting normal
flow. Either having a voting scheme or some type of identifying means to
either completely remove them or at least make it easier to avoid them.

I'd be in favor of that, to a degree. If you get a bad cook, simply
sending the meal back won't solve the problem.

2. Spam repellent - Similar to Cooks.

The worst would be cooks who prepare Spam. Though Spam is very
popular in some places (I understand that Hawaiians consume more
Spam than any other state in the US), I've never known a cook
who can prepare it well.

<snip>


Apologies in advance for waste of bandwidth,

Rick

 

[Alf P. Steinbach]

* Jon Slaughter:

Sorry for all the cross posting but I'm interesting in getting a serious
discussion about how usenet has become lately.

Many people are moving away from usenet because of all the spam and cooks
that have been showing up. The rate of spammer seem to be growing
exponentially(ok, not really but it feels like it).

I think maybe its time to do something about it. What I'd like to see happen
is an "upgrade" to usenet. I do not like th forum based communiations that
has sprung up lately but since it solves many of usenet's shortcommings I
believe that will will take over.

If many people feel the same way then maybe we can move on to something
better and increase the efficiency and productivity that usenet was meant
for.

Some ideas I have are:

1. Cook repellent - Some method to prevent cooks from interrupting normal
flow. Either having a voting scheme or some type of identifying means to
either completely remove them or at least make it easier to avoid them.

Use a newsreader with scoring.

2. Spam repellent - Similar to Cooks.

Use a spam filter and/or a smap-filtering news host (e.g.
news.individual.net).

3. Meta data - Have the ability to directly include graphics and things like
TeX into messages. For those that do not want to view it they can disable it
or have some other means to see it.

Use the MIME standard, supported by all newsreaders (except perhaps
Google (even your Outlook Express)).

4. Specific tools for groups - Different groups have different needs for
communication. Mathematics groups need to efficiently communicate
mathematical formulas while electronics need to communicate schematics.

Use the relevant XML-based standard in conjunction with MIME.

5. Moderation - Potentially give regular users of the group the ability to
"quasi-moderate" or in general just have a wide range of options to have
more control over groups(But not to much).

Use a newsreader with scoring.

6. Non-anomality or some way to slow down spammers. Maybe better routing
data and such.

Use a spam filter and/or a spam-filtering news host (e.g.
news.individual.net).

7. Potentially "Backwards compatible" with usenet - have the ability to surf
usenet with the same client to help make a smoother transition.

That would be Usenet.

Cheers, & hth.,

- Alf

PS: If not already evident, I think your posting was due to simple
ignorance.


[No follow ups, please]

 

[Lester Zick]

I'd be in favor of that, to a degree. If you get a bad cook, simply
sending the meal back won't solve the problem.

I can't remember ever getting a bad idea from a cook. Whereas I've
gotten plenty from sacred cows.

The worst would be cooks who prepare Spam. Though Spam is very
popular in some places (I understand that Hawaiians consume more
Spam than any other state in the US), I've never known a cook
who can prepare it well.

I believe Spam was invented by Capt. James Cook. Possibly apochryphal.
I don't know who invented sacred cows. Possibly bad cooks.

Apologies in advance for waste of bandwidth,

Not so far.

~v~~

 

[John Larkin]

Sorry for all the cross posting but I'm interesting in getting a serious
discussion about how usenet has become lately.

Many people are moving away from usenet because of all the spam and cooks
that have been showing up.

Really, you should try some of my bean recipes.

John

 

[Michael Black]

Sorry for all the cross posting but I'm interesting in getting a serious
discussion about how usenet has become lately.

YOu are now part of the problem, bozo.

You cross-posted this to
comp.dsp,comp.lang.c++
microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp
sci.electronics.basics
sci.electronics.design
sci.mat
which really have nothing to do with each other.

And none of them have any relevance to your topic, but like so many others,
you feel you should post to newsgroups you know, rather than find the
appropriate newsgroup.

Cross-posting is some of the problem, bozos who think they have something
so important to say that they cross-post, not caring about the damage
they do.

Self-control is also lacking. ANd obviously you lack it, since you
had to cross-post. People who can't control themselves from posting
off-topic junk to a newsgroup, people who can't control themselves
from getting into long threads with the cross-posting idiots, people
who can't trim what they are quoting, forcing us to scroll pages
down before we see what they have to say, which is often not worth
the trip, but we don't know that until we get down there.

I do argue that the decline of Usenet is because the user base
is declining, and the remaining are abusing the medium.

I keep tuning out of newsgroups, because they have gone from
being about the topic they are named for to hangouts for the people
who decide to make it such. I do keep checking "dead" newsgroups
even though they get hardly any traffic, but I am no longer interested
in toleratin newsgroups where there is lots of traffic but we
have to wade through all kinds of off-topic junk such as this
in order to find the on-topic posts.

Spam is not a problem so long as there is real traffic in a newsgroup,
and real traffic is not about someone's weather or desire to change
Usenet.

Michael

 

[Eric Jacobsen]

x2

I'm trying to see if the community is interested in moving into something
better.

That's what a lot of kooks and spammers and trolls say to justify
spamming cross-posts, so I think your argument is a bit weak here.

Much of the community has and does "move on to something better" in
the form of discussions forums and other internet resources. I think
trying to "reform" usenet is a bit futile and will wind up breaking
the few things that it has going for it (e.g., unmoderated groups that
don't "belong" to anyone).

I agree. I almost hate to respond to this and contribute to the
problem, but there's so much of this OT cross-posting lately that it's
hard to not try to get some feedback in the system.

Hmm... But yet its ok for you to do it? I knew someone would say such a
thing but I guess you rather me post individually to each group?

How about finding a relevant administrative group in which you might
find the people most able and qualified to do something, get consensus
there, and then if/when that's done take it to other groups. Then
you'd have the benefit of being able to cite the support of some
credible people who may be able to effect change at the levels that it
would need to happen, and your story to the masses would have some
weight. Right now you're no different than the trolls/kooks/spammers
that you're opposing and you're doing so without any sort of tangible
proposal or means to execute it. You're the equivalent of a guy
waving his shirt on a corner calling for the overthrow of the
government in order to make laws against people waving their shirt on
a corner, IMHO.

Fortunately there is a difference between what I posted and spam. I do not
in general post to multiple groups and I am not posting an irrelevant
message or trying to sell a product or waste peoples time. What I am asking
is relevant to all those that use usenet. It is a serious question please
respond with a serious answer.

Seriously, take it to groups where this is on-topic first. Stop
creating a problem in groups that are already having problems with
crap like this. If you want groups to be able to stay on-topic,
taking them off topic isn't a good way to impress people with your
cause.

And hell, if you hate cross posting then please don't do it yourself.... it
makes you look like a hypocrit.

My newsreader only allows four groups to be addressed at once in order
to minimize useless cross-posting (like this), so I had to cut one
out. If it's the one you're reading, then I'm essentially writing to
the wind. With many newsreaders, the only way to know for sure your
response is read in the originating newsgroup is to reply to all
cross-posted groups. So I don't think it's hypocritical to respond,
but it's certainly problematic when somebody starts a widely
cross-posted thread that is OT to many of the groups.

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms
Abineau Communications
http://www.ericjacobsen.org

 

[D from BC]

Sorry for all the cross posting but I'm interesting in getting a serious
discussion about how usenet has become lately.

Many people are moving away from usenet because of all the spam and cooks
that have been showing up. The rate of spammer seem to be growing
exponentially(ok, not really but it feels like it).

[sip]

I like the wild wild west feel of usenet. Raw, unmoderated and free
Yeeee hahhhhh....bang bang bang


D from BC

 

[Rich Grise]

Don't get me wrong though. Maybe I am the only one concerned here and
maybe I am wasting everyone's time... but compared to rest of the spam
thats a chance I'm willing to take.

Well, FWIW, there's these:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="discussion+groups"

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

I believe Spam was invented by Capt. James Cook. Possibly apochryphal.

<http://media.hormel.com/templates/knowledge/knowledge.asp?catitemid=16&id=132>


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[John Larkin]

Sorry for all the cross posting but I'm interesting in getting a serious
discussion about how usenet has become lately.

Many people are moving away from usenet because of all the spam and cooks
that have been showing up. The rate of spammer seem to be growing
exponentially(ok, not really but it feels like it).

[sip]

I like the wild wild west feel of usenet. Raw, unmoderated and free
Yeeee hahhhhh....bang bang bang

Yup. We didn't move West to engage in genteel conversation over tea
and cucumber sandwiches. We might even concede that BC is somewhat
"west."

John

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

I'd be in favor of that, to a degree. If you get a bad cook, simply
sending the meal back won't solve the problem.

The worst would be cooks who prepare Spam. Though Spam is very
popular in some places (I understand that Hawaiians consume more
Spam than any other state in the US), I've never known a cook
who can prepare it well.

Prepare it? You rip off the lid and either use a fork to eat it out
of the can, or slice it and make sandwiches. Only wimps need to
'prepare it'. Soldiers during WWII didn't need it 'prepared', and if it
was good enough for them, it should be plenty good enough for you!

<snip>

Apologies in advance for waste of bandwidth,

Rick

http://www.spam.com/whatisspam/

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Sorry for all the cross posting but I'm interesting in getting a serious
discussion about how usenet has become lately.

Many people are moving away from usenet because of all the spam and cooks
that have been showing up. The rate of spammer seem to be growing
exponentially(ok, not really but it feels like it).

[sip]

I like the wild wild west feel of usenet. Raw, unmoderated and free
Yeeee hahhhhh....bang bang bang

D from BC

Stop blowing up all those electrolytics! Do you have ANY idea how
hard it is to clean that crap off the ceiling?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Rick Decker]

Prepare it? You rip off the lid and either use a fork to eat it out
of the can, or slice it and make sandwiches. Only wimps need to
'prepare it'. Soldiers during WWII didn't need it 'prepared', and if it
was good enough for them, it should be plenty good enough for you!

Heh. I did a lot of things in the Army that I (happily) haven't
done since.


Regards,

Rick

 

[Jon Slaughter]

Really, you should try some of my bean recipes.

Lol... shit. It as 4AM and I've been up all night. kook... cook... kook...
there to close to tell at 4AM ;/

 

[Default User]

Rick Decker wrote:


Prepare it? You rip off the lid and either use a fork to eat it
out of the can, or slice it and make sandwiches. Only wimps need to
'prepare it'. Soldiers during WWII didn't need it 'prepared', and if
it was good enough for them, it should be plenty good enough for you!

Yeah, and LOT of those guys are dead now. Coincidence? I think not.





Brian