WW said:
Beth. You either learn to listen to what is said or you learn to listen to
what you think about it. It is your choice: to make you life easier or
harder.
again: over-reacting
again: abrupt and dismissive
again: abrupt, dismissive and repetition (the "sin" you accuse me of)
again: abrupt, dismissive and repetative
Your tone (as shown) is highly abrupt, dismissive and highly
repetative (again: pot calling kettle black when you claim this is my
"terrible sin")...
And now I know this is quite delibrate because I clearly was extending
a hand of peace in that last post and was calling a truce...but you
threw it in my face...again...
again: abrupt, dismissive and repetition
again: abrupt, dismissive and this repetition is now getting stupidly
silly...not to mention grossly hypocritical when you accuse me of
being terrible for all the things _you_ are actually doing far more
than I...
I was not talking about delays. Never mind.
Yes, never mind...I was introducing an explanation which was about
delays...or am I only permitted to speak _exactly_ on the strict
topics you alone define?
again: abrupt, dismissive and repetition
Yes. Trying to help repeatedly posting huge posts, basically saying the
very same thing over and over again.
The hypocritical irony of you telling me about the "sin" of repetition
I think is highlighted well by just including your responses alone in
this thread...don't you agree?
I did not snap you rudely. I have asked you not to bring up the thread -
which was at that time sinking - and even said *thanx* if you care to look
at what *I posted*.
Yes; Which shows you weren't listening because I was saying that he'd
be back...and he was...exactly as predicted...I repeat, I was posting
to share my experience of the Sage in order to prepare you for what
he's like...nothing more...
OK. If it makes you happy, demand it. I only demand fair treatment from
those who are in an authority position. From the others, I either earn it
or not. Which does not matter much in this case, since you have not been
treated unfairly. But if honesty bothers you, you need to look for
"friends" who lie what you want to hear.
I'm curious...are you actually completely oblivious to how rudely
dismissive your responses can be? I'm getting the exact same "talking
to a brick wall" feeling that the Sage generates...
again: abrupt, dismissive...and repetition which is now qualifying as
beyond merely delibrate...but now it's easily "provocative" in a Sage
trolling kind of way...
Bullshit. There was no nastiness from my side until you have started your
personal vendetta against me. With my "inner eyes" I see The Sage
laughing...
There is no personal vendetta...I, in fact, was clearly extending a
hand of peace in that last post, which, like everything else, you
rudely and abruptly dismiss...I apologise if I'm in some way "beneath"
you or something...
Look at what you write and how long it is. I was trying to give to you an
objective opinion. It is your business if you take it or not.
Strictly, you can only supply me your own _subjective_ opinion on the
matter...so the appeal to "objectivity" to give the impression "right"
is on your side doesn't really hold...
I have got no idea whatsoever until I have started you to repeat the same
things over and over again.
again: hilarious hypocrisy considering your responses are nothing but
repetition of the same abrupt, dismissive phrases over and over
again...
Each showing that you take this The Sage person
way too seriously and in a way too personal way.
Not at all; Your telepathy is on the blink...I repeat, other than a
post I just made to Sage because I was bored, I don't ever respond to
him and he never responds to me...
You see, yes...now I'm merely waiting for the _comprehension_ of what
you see to sink in...
5Bs. Be Brief Brother, Be Brief.
Is this a reference to something? I don't recognise it...
Cool. I meant your lengthy posts about The Sage and how he
frustrates you.
Incorrect; I've written far more about how _you_ frustrate me, I
assure you...
Good. Try once facing them and eliminating them. You are not what I see
you to be. You are you. But if you lie to yourself you will not become
what you have lied to yourself, but you will become the lie. Real friends
will tell you if you do that, and will show you the mirrored image even if
you don't like it. Even if you hate them for it. Those who try to cheat
themselves into your trust or do not care - well, those will support
anything you say.
Ask yourself! What is easier? Change everyone on the face of the Earth and
beyond who could deliberately or inadvertently? Or change your view of it
and get over it? Or possibly think about what they have said while puting
preconceptions and assumptions away?
Now, let's pause and review your accusations...wasn't taking things
too seriously and "get a life" amongst them? Glad to see that you have
no idea how to take your own advice...do I get the "New Communist
Manifesto" as a reprise or something?
That is the case then. I am just as honest here (and make a fool of myself
due to that many times) as I am in real life, being alone with someone or
being in a bigger group.
And the people you meet are in no way upset when you abruptly
dismissive them over and over with the same repetative statement? Wow!
Magical people...you're very lucky there...
But why do you show them? Did you think about that?
Yes; Honesty engenders good reactions in other people as they like to
see it...only a very sparse and small minority are different on
this...which, apparently, is the group you belong to...
Also, emotions are not in any way "sinful"...though bottling them all
up for fifty years has been known to tip some people into exploding
into shotgun rampages...
And, really, don't play "amateur psychologist" with me unless you're
willing to go the full distance...psychology is one of my many amateur
interests...and though defensively you seem unwilling to credit me
with it, I tend to have very good intuition when dealing with people
with many more accurate assessments than the odd genuine slip-up...
For instance, there is a minefield of psychology here...why the
insistance on my emotional suppression? I could discuss it further but
I realise that the low self-esteem and lack of confidence prompting
this need for suppression of others would only serve to embarass you
publicly and likely drive you further under, like a hedgehog curling
up into a ball...so I'll avoid long drawn out conversation over a
potentially embarassing topic (it's already prompting a need for
suppresion just to say the word "emotion") for your benefit but to
briefly mention it so that really do know I'm not bluffing...
Don't tell me about your mother or I might be tempted to bring out the
Rorschach tests
Speaking of my intuition, why you think I changed the tone in the
middle of the reply to you? It seems to be working...you're beginning
to open a little more than "again: over-reacting" a hundred times...I
knew there was _someone_ inside there who was worth talking to...nice
to see you pop your head out from under the tortoise shell...hello!
Nice to meet you, at last! *wave*
And why do you get offended is someone else has an opinion about it?
This was not the cause of my upset as I clearly explained...
Short story. I knew a girl, who in the middle of a discussion about a town
or other things just dropped in a comment about someone being raped there.
At the first time it was only odd. After some such comments (within years)
I have got suspicious. It turned out that the girl was raped several times
on a very brutal way. And she told to no one. She could not. But it was
still coming out on odd occasions. And that was just one story. In my
world people expressing their frustrations and opinions about things being
bad are indeed asking to be listened to and ask for help... they just cannot
do it straight.
Well, not quite the "New Communist Manifesto"...but...
And I see a pattern here in you being "proud" of being frustrated.
Do I have to pay for this therapy session?
No, it's like you said: "Try once facing [ your emotions ] and
eliminating them"...such a process is not instanteous...and as the
wise man once said: "Do not be overly critical of a work in progress"
So the reason why I pointed out that it is bad you pay that much attention
to The Sage and his ranting was not to offend you, but to give you an
"outside" - if not objective - opinion.
Oh, well...at least you're rightly acknowledging that it's not
automatically "objective" here...
Your concern really is touching and appreciated but you appear to be
confusing me with someone else...and, for that, I offer my sympathies
for whatever occurred with her (whoever she is) but talk to her, not
me...as you say, "try once facing them and eliminating them"...
Neither did I ask for one.
I did not suggest you did...clearly, I was referring to the "unusual"
nature...first rule of psychoanalysis, if you insist on trying: every
single word uttered says something so attempt to comprehend the very
psychology residing behind even the simple choices of phraseology
(that's why you can claim your words were not rude but I'm reading
your tone as well, you see)...
It does not hurt me, it may hurt you.
I assure you - despite the fears you may retain about such conduct (as
noted, I won't go into it unless you wish to discuss it) -
self-repression is far, far more dangerous...it is a form of
self-punishment, usually for a "crime" that does not exist but for an
unforgiving self-nature...
I _guarantee_ you, if you open up your nature then you will receive
far _less_ criticism from outside than you may apply to
yourself...making the initial leap of Faith is difficult...
I know, I did it...the actual source of my verbosity, if you're
wondering, is merely the "release" effect of finally making that leap
of Faith from nigh-on complete repression...one of those people who
says nothing and always looks uneasy and uncomfortable in unexpected
public conversations with strangers...I bit the bullet...there was, in
fact, NOTHING TO FEAR whatsoever...I had internally created a fear
many, many times greater than the reality...which is actually, I
assure you, entirely harmless...my verbosity is almost a "celebration"
of release from those fears and an enthusiasm to demonstrate that
those inner demons of embarassment and fear of failure you possess are
fictious creations of your imagination...a lack of release of these
fears actually causes a mental "feedback loop"...it is severely
damaging to mental health...coupled with my verbosity, I contain a
high degree of reknown eccentricism too...take this seriously, it is
capable of causing _permanent_ damage...I merely came out
half-scarred...it could have been worse...a shotgun rampage at age
fourty or something...
The speed with which you have jumped to psychoanalysis suggests a
Freudian "cry for help" (as I half-seriously joke, Freud's own
"obsession" with sexual repression, incest and general "freakism"
probably was also a "cry for help" but everyone hailed him a genius
for simply explaining himself out loud, which wasn't what he actually
needed)...it would do you a massive injustice to believe that I could
assist via such a restricted medium as Usenet...I know it'll be
difficult to accept my word on it alone but I urge you to find a good
friend...they will not judge and there is nothing to fear, as that is
why they are your friend...they like you and would actually _enjoy_
helping you, if they could...
If you choose to be proud of things bad for you, it is your choice.
It's not "bad for me" at all...you are, in fact, voicing your own
fears and transplanting them onto others...this is known as
"projection" in the mostly pointless ego-fuelled jargon about this
sort of thing...
In fact, the "liberation" - despite what your own internal fears might
try to repress - has actually been incredibly beneficial...you do not
really know yourself until you are perfectly happy to _know_
yourself...faults an' all...you must be able to forgive yourself...you
_will_ be glad of it, I cannot urge more highly...
But your "projection" may succeed as, like many in this often
neurotically introverted field of "objective comforts" in a
deterministic universe (computers don't make "geeks", geeks are
attracted to its relative "safety"), I'm not unsympathetic to the
predicament, as it is familiar...
Yes, the gap is large...but, simply, _JUMP!_...make that leap of
Faith...those fears _will_ attack you with their worst...but like
giving up smoking or some other addiction, it's _all_ wrapped up in
the decision to NOT be that way anymore and it will ease off quickly
once you make the initial leap...in fact, many who make the leap
almost go to the other extreme in "celebration"...hence, my
verbosity...
I have made all I can do: I have told you you could do better.
Indeed; I have long since accepted that...perhaps that is why you are
"projecting" on me because you can tell and it always makes sense to
aim a "cry for help" (I hate that term, sounds far worse than it
should) at those who seem to be in a position to do something...
Create a "comfort zone", populate it with a good friend and make that
leap from the hands of fears trying to pull you back down...and, like
shampoo, repeat as necessary...soon, you will have what it is that
you're really looking for: true independence...although, the journey
is longer, I'm afraid to say...working on _interdependence_ needs to
be managed next...I'm still figuring that one out, even as we speak
Yep. But there is another way. Get rid of those things bothering you by a
simple decision that they won't bother you anymore. And get on with oyur
life being happier and more free.
You mean: suppression and repression? That's a false
"liberation"...perhaps you can't credit this at the moment but I've
experienced both...repression is what's far more harmful...
Problems DO NOT go away...you can hide but you can't run...to
temporarily forget once in a while is okay and beneficial...but what
you seek is to "forgive and forget", not merely to just
"forget"...stick your head in the sand and you just get a mouthful of
sand...
Those who've followed my posts would, I think, find it difficult to
credit that "more free" assessment...now "Liberated", I'm often a
rabid defender of Liberties...I capitalise the words Love and Liberty
in all my posts, regardless of grammatical correctness...
If you were seriously psychoanalysing rather than this merely being
"projection" onto me of what you actually desire - the "liberation"
from those neurotic fears I speak of - then I'd advise you're a pretty
widely-off-the-mark psychoanalyst and shouldn't give up the day job of
C++ programming
I do. But I also do see you take things way to seriously.
And launching into stories about rape after three call-and-reply posts
to a complete stranger is an entirely "normal", "casual" and "relaxed"
view of the world?
No one will type essays if things did not bother them.
Wrong; That's more "projection"...I'm sure _you_ wouldn't do so...but
it does not apply universally, I'm afraid...
I'm a Lover of language...social interaction...have always been
infinitely curious about how _everything_ works (why you think I'm
here?
...that kid who keeps asking why the sky is blue...who never
gives up asking "why?" to every explanation...as the wise men once
said, "to be understood, you must first seek to understand"...
I assure you, _plenty_ type essays for pure pleasure...this may not
describe you...but - brace yourself, this could come as a shock -
you're NOT the centre of the universe...
I would beg to differ from example...you have replied with repeated
abrupt dismissive statements...you have recommended claming up on
emotions...you even, worryingly, have suggested that openness will
"harm" someone...
And I never thought there will be someone else "worse" than me. ;-)
Ah, I bet you tell this to all the boys. ;-)
Nope, just you and the Dalai Lama's third cousin...unfortunately, he
doesn't speak English, so that was all for naught in the end...
I am one of them. Not always, but being more than 900 years old one learns
a lot. (Referring to my joking about my bad English and really
being Yoda.)
First rule of comedy: NEVER explain a joke...make it more obvious,
perhaps, but don't ever explain it...it never works...
Happens to the best of us. Even me. ;-)
No, you misunderstand...this wasn't a "confession"...I'm well-aware of
what happens to the best of us...I was telling _you_...Geez Louise,
some people...
Well, you need to know that. Just be careful not to cheat yourself.
Yoda, that "force" stuff ain't working right...if the desired effect
was "look, I'm sensitive" then you really need to try harder...I was
not born yesterday...
Yep. But you were very concerned about others answering him. It looked way
too concerned from the chair where I am sitting.
Then may I suggest you switch chairs?
Yep. But believe me that here there are mostly thinking people (with few
exceptions) and those will see through a troll very fast.
Yeah, right...what week are we in now?
Let's see, it's at least week #3 we're in, with no apparent let up on
people "talking" to Sage about the C++ standard...and I simply am NOT
going to count the number of posts, as this is the most posts I've
_ever seen_ in a thread...there's literally hundreds and hundreds...
If this is "very fast", I dread to see "very slow"...
Note: There is NO aspersions cast on anyone's intelligence
whatsoever...what I was conveying was _knowledge_ of experiences that
they couldn't possibly know (well, not unless they also follow the ASM
group), not some great Confuscius-like (or Yoda-like, if you prefer
"wisdom"...I was saying what the Sage was like from experience...not
trying to teach people how to read their "ABC" or anything...
The conclusion is there. There are worldwide experts who posted them. What
is going on now is few people having fun with a pathetic troll.
Yup, but even you're going to have to concede that it's not quite
"swift conclusion"...fair enough, it didn't work...the "worldwide
experts" took offence at "some woman" poking her nose in and ignored
me...not the first time...
Whatever; It's all past tense now...
I see. Do you care to share what damage The Sage did to you? I start to
see something coming up here...
Oh, you really do have a massive chip on your shoulder, don't you?
I'm aware that America isn't always fully culturally developed when it
comes to viewing women as equals...so you gain the benefit of the
doubt solely on this point for the moment...
He won't. When all the guys will realise that he is pathetic and
boring he will get no answers whatsoever. And he will get lost.
Oh, indeed; I was not doubting that ultimate conclusion...I have
complete faith in the general intelligence of the groups...I was -
and, please, drop the tired bad attempts at psychoanalysis as there's
nothing there - merely trying to speed along that swift conclusion...
Seemed...
Okay, duely repeated...now, you try an outright denial rather than
this clever pedantical side-step of "avoidance"...
If you think that any of my "angry" replies to Rage were anything more
than me having fun... No. There is no Sage Mode.
He is not close to
that. I know some trolls here who were able to get at me - once. But I
learn.
Then my assessment there was inaccurate...there is no grounds for the
truce I was proposing...you seem unwilling to concede your face, even
in the interests of peace...there can be no other conclusion...
En guard...
Good. But as I see there is still something you hide, something what drives
you to care about what he does and to drive you to bother to explain your
actions.
No, you are simply mistaken...honestly...of course, you can insist
over and over that something is being hidden because, well, how can I
prove the non-existence? But, I assure you, you're simply mistaken...
Not really. As I have said The Sage is just not clever enough to put me
into any other mood than I am in already. Except when he makes me laugh on
his pathetic tactics.
I have read your replies...as have others...you are simply fibbing
here...and if you believe this is giving some sort of "hard"
impression, it's actually doing the opposite...as you appear too weak
to concede any fault at all...just like the Sage...
Then you reject the olive branch...okay, your decision, which I shall
respect...
I have briefly asked you to not bring up the thread.
Whatever mood you have felt to detect was not there.
I simply do not believe you...you have been repeatedly and repeatedly
aburpt, dismissive, posturing, ego-loaded, unable to concede a single
thing, trying to reverse the issues when I may get close with some
cowboy amateur psychology...
Of course, you will claim that I'm seeing things which are not
there...but I am not...although, there is no point in "yes, you are"
because that only leads to a pantomime stalemate...
Nope. It was simply you, taking a communication without a lot of filling as
hostile. It happens, especially to US people. If something is told
straight it is taken as rude.
No, this is inaccurate...I converse with many American citizens and
you are the first and sole example of any note I've ever encountered
on this unique issue...sorry, but it is simply _you_...you are abrupt,
dismissive, impolite, posturing, ego-loaded and refuse to concede a
single thing, lest lose any face...
I did not take it this way either. I was rather see it as overly sensitive
overreaction.
What you'd rather see it as is immaterial...I mean, I would "rather
see" world peace but that doesn't speak anything about reality,
exactly as your wishful thinking does not describe the terrain
either...
Try holding your breath while you type and never make a post longer than a
breath.
That is a ludicrous suggestion...the length is defined _exclusively_
by content and the needs of presentation of that content...any other
false measure or device is patently absurd, whatever your
ill-qualified English teacher might have instructed you about "spider
diagrams" and other devices used by those who have no appreciation of
the nature of art to give them some ridiculous "rules" to cling to and
to preach about to simply justify their salaries...
This (IIRC) is at least third time I read this in this post only. I think
there is more to it than meets the eye.
No, incorrect...I was replying in-place to your comments (I note
suitably snipped here...you would not be being so low as to
delibrately try to place my comments out of context to give the wrong
impression?)...you brought up the subject three times, I replied to
each...if you'd only wanted to know once, then only ask once...it's a
nice, simple rule to ensure _you_ comply with non-repetition...
I don't think he does. I don't think he even knows he ougth to know what he
is.
An incorrect assessment; You're not so ego-loaded and arrogant as to
think that your pure guesswork outranks actual experience? I really
_am_ "beneath" you in your estimation, aren't I? You repeated fail to
read because I don't earn your attention, in your opinion...you
believe you can completely break open my persona and psychoanalysis me
after only a three deep call-and-reply?
Whatever it is you're "expert" in, it is not a universal pass into
knowledge of everything...and knowledge, anyway, is useless when you
lack wisdom...sorry, Yoda you ain't...not even a young Obi Wan...
Ignoring him and not answering his posts are two completely different
things.
Correct; Okay, you're sufficiently egotistical so as not to be able to
comprehend someone who feels a need to fulfill social
obligations...heck, even basic civility and politeness is too much
effort on most occasions...you don't understand and it seems I can't
explain it to you...fine, you lose out by the miscomprehension, not
I...
OK. Please be assured he will only get any attention here as long as he
amuses people. And he has not too much to offer.
Well, yes, but these warnings were issued a fortnight ago...they are
applicable to that time period...it is now, yes, "after the fact" and
their significance has diminished...
And I _never_ doubted that would be the ultimate conclusion, I was
merely attempted to assist things to a swifter conclusion...you've got
some ego thing, you didn't want to know...the attempt thus faltered...
No..._I_ said...can't handle "girl on top", eh? Well, no wonder you've
got a problem with me...
I did nto conclude it from the size of the posts.
#2 for saying the same thing.
No, incorrect; New information regards the juxtaposition of those who
believe it a chore, whereas I do not was introduced...the re-statement
of my verbosity was thus applied in and attached to that new context
to establish its status as an explanation of the earlier statement of
verbosity...
Learn to read...then, afterward, learn to write...because you were
earlier only able to manage exact repeated duplication of "again:
over-reaction"...only #2 for me...you are on about #11 or so when it
comes to your repetition...do you even understand the notion of
hypocrisy?
Just be sure you don't cheat yourself.
Oh, you really are getting on my nerves big-time...somewhere between
an insane "end is nigh" street preacher, a brick wall and a broken
record...you do not amuse me anymore...don't expect any sizeable
replies from now on...you just don't have the wit or the capacity, I'm
afraid...
Auf Wiedersehen,
Beth
