Software Needs Philosophers

[Timo Stamm]

Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's
repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though
repeatedly he's being asked not to do so.

And repeatedly, others have encouraged him because they appreciate his
posts.

but since I've stopped following threads originated by him

That's all you need to do if you are not interested in his posts.


Timo

 

[Ben Bullock]

If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
please write to my web hosting provider (e-mail address removed)

Why don't you just change your provider? It would take less time than this.

 

[olsongt]

Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's
repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though
repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. (Extensive crossposting to
various usenetgroups / mailing lists, for instance).

If he would just post his stuff on a blog and find a why to get people
to visit hist blog, without crossposting to 10 usenest groups for each
post he makes to his blog, then nobody would mind him expressing his
opinions, and those interested could discuss them wildly on the blog.

But I've repeatedly seen people telling him not to crosspost his essays
to so many newsgroups, yet he continues doing it.
If that's enough to quit his subscription with his ISP I don't know,
but since I've stopped following threads originated by him I don't know
what other grounds there would be.

Cheers,

--Tim

The trouble is there's no definitive definition of 'nettiquette' (and
no the RFC on nettiquette doesn't count). Should people get kicked off
of thier ISP for top posting? What about not asking 'smart' questions
as defined by Eric Raymond?

In addition, the people telling him not to cross-post don't really have
any authority. They're just random people on the internet. For
example, you've cross posted to several groups. I'm telling you to
stop. Of course I'm doing the same thing and you can feel free to
ignore me. I'm not the Supreme Master of comp.lang.python.

But I think you would agree that it would be harrassment if I went to
your ISP- nl.unisys.com - and said that you were abusing the internet
and 'spamming' the usenet, especially if you are a unisys employee (not
sure if they're a service provider over there, but I'm guessing not).
If I got a hold of the wrong person on the wrong day, you could lose
your job.

Xah is an crackpot, but he doesn't spam or mailbomb groups. And
besides, what fun would the usenet be without crackpots?

 

[SamFeltus]

I was considering opening an account with Dreamhost. Can't say I agree
with all of Xah's writings, but they often raise important points.
Dreamhost is a company I will never spend money with. Usenet is full
of narrow minded group thinking that needs to be questioned.

 

[George Sakkis]

With apologies to Voltaire:
If Xah Lee did not exist, it would be necessary for John Bokma to
invent him.

Xah and Bokma are both idiots, they truly deserve each other. The
sooner you killfile these two clowns, the happier you'll be.

Well said, I couldn't put it better.

 

[Eli Gottlieb]

Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's
repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though
repeatedly he's being asked not to do so. (Extensive crossposting to
various usenetgroups / mailing lists, for instance).

If he would just post his stuff on a blog and find a why to get people
to visit hist blog, without crossposting to 10 usenest groups for each
post he makes to his blog, then nobody would mind him expressing his
opinions, and those interested could discuss them wildly on the blog.

But I've repeatedly seen people telling him not to crosspost his essays
to so many newsgroups, yet he continues doing it.
If that's enough to quit his subscription with his ISP I don't know,
but since I've stopped following threads originated by him I don't know
what other grounds there would be.

Cheers,

--Tim

Who reads blogs? They're well known for housing crackpots far worse
than Xah, and I estimate he doesn't want to associate himself with that
sort.

 

[Ken Tilton]

Perhaps he's not crossing boundaries of free speech, but he's
repeatedly crossing boundaries on usenet nettiquette, even though
repeatedly he's being asked not to do so.

This would be a more compelling argument if people on newsgroups
everywhere did not regularly carry on the most inane threads, often
off-topic to begin with, but mostly threads that stray from something
relevant to the NG to <insert just about anything>, ending only when
Hitler is reached.

And I am talking about NG regulars who really do usually talk about
stuff specific to the NG. Those are the worst spammers of c.l.l, anyway.

Xah's stuff, as wild as it is, is at least technical, and it is only an
article here and an article there.

John Bokma on the other hand.... well, I have to go write to the dorks
at dreamhost now.

kenny

 

[Ken Tilton]

Why don't you just change your provider? It would take less time than this.

Are you joking. "Just change your provider?" Do you have a little button
on your computer that says "Change provider"? Cool!

C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their
shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So
Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty
they are when they tell Xah off. Now /that/ is spam) is the problem.

kenny

--
Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

"Have you ever been in a relationship?"
Attorney for Mary Winkler, confessed killer of her
minister husband, when asked if the couple had
marital problems.

 

[Mitch]

Xah Lee schreef:
[...]

If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
please write to my web hosting provider (e-mail address removed)

Your help is appreciated. Thank you.

Xah
(e-mail address removed)
∑ http://xahlee.org/

We seem to have strayed a long way from Voltaire's
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your
right to say it.",
but that was of course the age of enlightenment.
Immanuel

I would have to say +1 for Voltaire. Xah has as much right to post to
the newsgroups as I do to skip over them. One of the reasons I enjoy
lurking on newsgroups is the passion with which a lot of you speak;
however, I do think there are a lot of short tempers flying around.
Perhaps its because you've been putting up with this guy a lot longer
than I have, but I can't imagine it takes that much effort to
skip/block/kill file his posts. It's his as much as anyone else's, and
all the while this is an unmoderated medium he has the *right* to say as
he pleases.


That said, if the ISP is kicking you off, it should be because you have
broken a TOC. IF you don't think that that is the case, then that is
your beef with them.

Secondarily, all these essays end up on your site anyway, so why post
the whole thing /again/ on the newsgroups when you could just link to
the page, perhaps with a brief summary. Will that not

A) still allow you to advertise the essays

B) Save resources rather than copying everything twice

and

C) Piss less people off?

I'm sure you aren't worried about pissing people off, but when it
results in you getting kicked from your ISP, this just seems so much
more sensible an answer.

My 2 cents.

P.S.
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Summary) says:

<quote>
Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this
right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to
seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and
regardless of frontiers.
</quote>
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

This debate boils down to whether or not he has broken the ISP's TOCs,
nothing more.

 

[makc.the.great]

:> Software patents are endangering the computer industry all around
:> the world.

On the contrary, they will make a break-through possible. S/w patents
are not different from any other patents, and intellectual property is
not different from any other property; they all are designed to allow
one group of people to appropriate value created by other group of
people, and that's how they are perfect incentive. Once before the
stone age men have lived in a society without property, and we know
what it was worth of.

It is my personal belief that intellectual property, or - if you prefer
- protected knowledge will soon grow faster then public knowledge,
BECAUSE corpos will realize (and many already do) its potential to
secure their business. Then, the long-awaited boost in AI research will
be finally possible, though not in "public domain" knowledge.

IMHO.

 

[bradb]

C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their
shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that? So
Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how witty
they are when they tell Xah off. Now /that/ is spam) is the problem.

kenny

I agree. It is not Xah who is the problem, but the 200 replies to him
telling him to go away. Look at Xah's posting to replies ratio, it is
enormous - Xah is the ultimate troll and everything he posts turns into
huge threads. At c.l.l at least his threads are almost certainly the
longest by far.
The answer is easy, don't respond to his posts.

Cheers
Brad

(sigh, now I am one of the crossposting Xah repliers)

 

[John Bokma]

fup to poster

I'm sorry to trouble everyone. But as you might know, due to my
controversial writings and style,

You're mistaken. Not that I or many other people with some brains had
expected anything else. The problem is that you crosspost to 5 groups (5,
which I am sure is a limitation Google Groups set to you, and has nothing
to do with you respecting Usenet a bit) for the sole purpose of
spamvertizing your website.

recently John Bokma lobbied people to
complaint to my web hosting provider. After exchanging a few emails, my
web hosting provider sent me a 30-day account cancellation notice last
Friday.

Which shows that your actions are frowned upon by others, for good
reasons. Of course you are going in cry baby mode now.

I'm not sure I will be able to keep using their service, but I do hope
so. I do not like to post off-topic messages,
Liar.

but this is newsgroup
incidence is getting out of hand, and I wish people to know about it.

I wrote some full detail here:
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html

You mean your brain farted again some bullshit.

If you believe this lobbying to my webhosting provider is unjust,
please write to my web hosting provider (e-mail address removed)

dreamhost has made a decission, a right one IMO. And now you ask people to
harass them more?

You really are just a pathetic little shit now aren't you?

Not even the balls nor the guts to fix the issue that you are.

 

[John Bokma]

The solution to your problem is very simple:

Stop posting your "controversial writings and style" to public
newgroups, and keep them on your web-server where they belong.

Or post them to one, and just one, relevant news group instead of
spamvertizing your site with a hit & run post in 5 (which is a Google
Groups limit, if it was 10, Xah would use 10)

 

[Mitch]

On the contrary, they will make a break-through possible. S/w patents
are not different from any other patents, and intellectual property is
not different from any other property; they all are designed to allow
one group of people to appropriate value created by other group of
people, and that's how they are perfect incentive. Once before the
stone age men have lived in a society without property, and we know
what it was worth of.

It is my personal belief that intellectual property, or - if you prefer
- protected knowledge will soon grow faster then public knowledge,
BECAUSE corpos will realize (and many already do) its potential to
secure their business. Then, the long-awaited boost in AI research will
be finally possible, though not in "public domain" knowledge.

IMHO.

http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/ has some good (read short but clear)
articles on why patents aren't necessarily a good idea. The main one I
find is that they aren't needed. Everything you write is already
copyright and this is plenty of protection, and more importantly /free/
protection. Patents require resources that many don't have, and thus
restricts the protection available to those with the money (read corps).

The argument isn't against protecting intellectual property, just the
way in which it is implemented.

Mitch.



YMMV and usual disclaimers.

 

[John Bokma]

Are you joking. "Just change your provider?" Do you have a little
button on your computer that says "Change provider"? Cool!

No, it will cost Xah money. In the end he will be with a bullet proof
hoster, like other kooks on Usenet, or get the message.

C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their
shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that?

So other people can read that reporting Xah *does* have an effect. A lot
of people think that a kill file is the only solution.

So Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how
witty they are when they tell Xah off.

So you haven't noticed that Xah does just hit & run posting?

In short, you have no clue what this is about, or are one of the fans Xah
seem to have?

Get a clue Kenny.

 

[John Bokma]

Tim N. van der Leeuw schrieb:

And repeatedly, others have encouraged him because they appreciate his
posts.

Of which I am sure a large part are just in for the troll fest that
follows. Some probably have also bumped into the netiquette. And instead
of using their brains, they can't handle the dent in their ego, and what
is not with them, must be shit, so they love stuff like this.

Every Usenet kook has a group of pathetic followers and sock puppets.

That's all you need to do if you are not interested in his posts.

You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. After some time Xah will
either walk in line with the rest of the world, or has found somewhere
else to yell. As long as it's not my back garden and not around 4AM, I am
ok with it.

 

[Bill Atkins]

C'mon, John Bokma (and everyone else dumb enough to crosspost their
shushing to every group on the crosspost list -- why do they do that?
So Xah will hear them six times? No, they want everyone to see how
witty they are when they tell Xah off. Now /that/ is spam) is the
problem.

+12 !

 

[John Bokma]

Who reads blogs? They're well known for housing crackpots far worse
than Xah, and I estimate he doesn't want to associate himself with that
sort.

Yup, he seems to be quite happy as a Usenet Kook

 

[Mitch]

John Bokma wrote:
[...]

You're mistaken. All you need to do is report it. After some time Xah will
either walk in line with the rest of the world, or has found somewhere
else to yell. As long as it's not my back garden and not around 4AM, I am
ok with it.

Walk in line with the rest of the world? Pah.

This is no-ones back garden.

 

[Bill Atkins]

No, it will cost Xah money. In the end he will be with a bullet proof
hoster, like other kooks on Usenet, or get the message.


So other people can read that reporting Xah *does* have an effect. A lot
of people think that a kill file is the only solution.

You win my unofficial contest for "Usenet Tool of the Year." It is
not difficult to skip to the next file or to add a sender to a
killfile. It is certainly less of a hassle than all this complaining
you do.

Life is short, John Bokma. There are more important things in the
world than tattling on Xah to his host. Maybe you can start
experiencing them if you learn to make use of the 'next message' key.

So you haven't noticed that Xah does just hit & run posting?

I've noticed it - but have you?

It would be only one post that could easily be ignored, if not for all
this rubbish that you and people like you feel the need to post (sure,
I realize I'm contributing to the problem). Isn't "hit & run posting"
better than a thread full of nonsense?