Css vs presentation page with cartoon

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Nik Coughin, Mar 7, 2005.

  1. Nik Coughin

    Nik Coughin Guest

    There is a page that uses pop art style cartoons to argue css over
    presentational markup. Can't find the url, can anyone help?

    --
    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
    typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" - Blair Houghton
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    http://www.nrkn.com/
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     
    Nik Coughin, Mar 7, 2005
    #1
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  2. Nik Coughin

    kchayka Guest

    Nik Coughin wrote:
    > There is a page that uses pop art style cartoons to argue css over
    > presentational markup. Can't find the url, can anyone help?


    <URL:http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/> ?

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    kchayka, Mar 8, 2005
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  3. Nik Coughin

    Nik Coughin Guest

    kchayka wrote:
    > Nik Coughin wrote:
    >> There is a page that uses pop art style cartoons to argue css over
    >> presentational markup. Can't find the url, can anyone help?

    >
    > <URL:http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/> ?


    That's the one, thanks!
     
    Nik Coughin, Mar 8, 2005
    #3
  4. Nik Coughin

    R2G2 Guest

    On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:48:51 +1300, "Nik Coughin"
    <nrkn!no-spam!@woosh.co.nz> wrote:

    >kchayka wrote:
    >> Nik Coughin wrote:
    >>> There is a page that uses pop art style cartoons to argue css over
    >>> presentational markup. Can't find the url, can anyone help?

    >>
    >> <URL:http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/> ?

    >
    >That's the one, thanks!
    >


    I like that - very clear. <em>But</em> they say to use divs, and I had
    big problems with divs because I use percent for text size, instead of
    a set size, which completely messed up my layout if people were
    viewing with anything larger than medium. For the time being, I think
    I'll stick to tables and css, because it works for me.


    --
    Beccy

    Bec but...
     
    R2G2, Mar 8, 2005
    #4
  5. kchayka wrote:
    > Nik Coughin wrote:
    > > There is a page that uses pop art style cartoons to argue css over
    > > presentational markup. Can't find the url, can anyone help?

    > <URL:http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/> ?


    CSS layout is nice, but because of inconsistant rendering on all
    browsers (ALL do something wrong) may not achieve all of the layouts
    one might want. (And "well change the layout" is not nessesaraly the
    correct answer)

    If you can create your site, the way you want, with CSS, then by all
    means you should. If you need a combination of CSS and tables to
    achieve your goals, then by all means do that, if it takes tables, then
    by all means use that.

    No matter what you use (css, tables, javascript, flash, what ever), it
    is the correct way if and only if the site acomplishes its goal.

    An all CSS site that fails to meet its goals may be politically
    correct, but the bottom line is it still failed to meet its goals.

    Most important is that your web site performs the way you need it to to
    acomplish its mission.

    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Mar 8, 2005
    #5
  6. Nik Coughin

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when R2G2
    <9.co.uk> wrote:

    >I had big problems with divs because I use percent for text size, instead of
    >a set size,


    You might have had big problems when you used divs, but not _because_
    you were using divs.
     
    Andy Dingley, Mar 8, 2005
    #6
  7. Nik Coughin

    R2G2 Guest

    On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:46:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
    <> wrote:

    >It was somewhere outside Barstow when R2G2
    ><9.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >>I had big problems with divs because I use percent for text size, instead of
    >>a set size,

    >
    >You might have had big problems when you used divs, but not _because_
    >you were using divs.


    No, it was because I positioned them where I wanted them, and where
    they looked good _unless_ the viewer had a different screen
    resolution, or had text size on anything bigger than medium. That
    made the divs with text bigger, so they weren't where I placed them
    (made speech much bigger than the speech bubble etc.). The problem
    wasn't the divs, but swapping to tables solved the problem

    --
    Beccy

    Bec but...
     
    R2G2, Mar 8, 2005
    #7
  8. Nik Coughin

    kchayka Guest

    R2G2 wrote:
    > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:46:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>You might have had big problems when you used divs, but not _because_
    >>you were using divs.

    >
    > No, it was because I positioned them where I wanted them,


    So you're saying that Andy was right. ;)

    Absolutely positioning text elements on a page is a disaster waiting to
    happen, as you found out.

    For best results with CSS layouts you need to:
    - understand the box model
    - understand how positioning and floats work
    - design for flexibility
    - apply KISS principles

    My guess is you didn't do at least one of the above.

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    Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
    Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
     
    kchayka, Mar 8, 2005
    #8
  9. Nik Coughin

    R2G2 Guest

    On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:23:49 -0600, kchayka <> wrote:

    >R2G2 wrote:
    >> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:46:15 +0000, Andy Dingley
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>You might have had big problems when you used divs, but not _because_
    >>>you were using divs.

    >>
    >> No, it was because I positioned them where I wanted them,

    >
    >So you're saying that Andy was right. ;)

    Yes, I was saying no, it wasn't divs... ;-)
    >
    >Absolutely positioning text elements on a page is a disaster waiting to
    >happen, as you found out.

    Big time! I was gutted when I saw it with bigger text size!
    >
    >For best results with CSS layouts you need to:
    >- understand the box model
    >- understand how positioning and floats work
    >- design for flexibility
    >- apply KISS principles
    >
    >My guess is you didn't do at least one of the above.


    I didn't do any of the above, I just played around in Dreamweaver.

    I'd not heard of any of those (and I thought I was getting my head
    around basic CSS!). I was going to ask what KISS stood for ;-)

    Thanks for those tips - more to read about and improve with :))


    --
    Beccy

    Bec but...
     
    R2G2, Mar 8, 2005
    #9
  10. Nik Coughin

    kchayka Guest

    R2G2 wrote:
    > On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:23:49 -0600, kchayka <> wrote:
    >
    >>For best results with CSS layouts you need to:
    >>- understand the box model
    >>- understand how positioning and floats work
    >>- design for flexibility
    >>- apply KISS principles

    >
    > I was going to ask what KISS stood for ;-)


    <URL:http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?Acronym=kiss>

    Go with the first result. :)

    --
    Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
    Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
     
    kchayka, Mar 8, 2005
    #10
  11. Nik Coughin

    R2G2 Guest

    On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:42:58 -0600, kchayka <> wrote:

    >R2G2 wrote:
    >> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 11:23:49 -0600, kchayka <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>For best results with CSS layouts you need to:
    >>>- understand the box model
    >>>- understand how positioning and floats work
    >>>- design for flexibility
    >>>- apply KISS principles

    >>
    >> I was going to ask what KISS stood for ;-)

    >
    ><URL:http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?Acronym=kiss>
    >
    >Go with the first result. :)

    ;-p


    --
    Beccy

    Bec but...
     
    R2G2, Mar 8, 2005
    #11
  12. Nik Coughin

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when R2G2
    <9.co.uk> wrote:

    >I didn't do any of the above, I just played around in Dreamweaver.


    That's the trouble with WYSIWYG, and particularly the "just playing
    around" approach.

    - Your browser is not my browser

    - If you defer decisions to your editing tool by "just playing
    around", you don't know what it decided, or why it decided it.

    Absolute positioning is great, as far as it works, but it's not robust
    f the underlying assumptions change. _Why_ is that column that width?
    Should it be big enough to hold some text (use ems), big enough to
    hold an image (use pixels), or splitting the window (use percentages).

    How should that column resize if the window size changes? Should it
    hold its own, resize in proportion, or expand to fill all available
    space at the expense of other columns?
     
    Andy Dingley, Mar 8, 2005
    #12
  13. in alt.html, Andy Dingley wrote:
    > It was somewhere outside Barstow when R2G2
    > <9.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    > >I didn't do any of the above, I just played around in Dreamweaver.

    >
    > That's the trouble with WYSIWYG, and particularly the "just playing
    > around" approach.


    Actually, it is not trouble with wysiwyg, in fact, with wysiwyg it is
    usually practical aproach. But, of course, there is no such thing as
    wysiwyg when talking about webpages.

    > - Your browser is not my browser


    And as importantly, your settings are not my settings. Many people are
    fooled, because they test with all these browsers, with all having
    similar settings.

    I'll recommend people to make few sets settings for browser(s), and just
    keep changing those whyle doing webpage. It helps a lot.

    > Absolute positioning is great, as far as it works, but it's not robust
    > f the underlying assumptions change. _Why_ is that column that width?
    > Should it be big enough to hold some text (use ems), big enough to
    > hold an image (use pixels), or splitting the window (use percentages).


    When you have 2 lenghts involved with absolute positioning of one
    element, you should consider it carefully.

    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
    Utrecht, NL.
     
    Lauri Raittila, Mar 10, 2005
    #13
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