New job and I want to change the world...

[SP]

Having been on this group quite a bit over the last 5+ years and almost
finishing my second degree, with some Java certs too...
I have now managed the career change and secured my first IT position.
Problem is it is not in Java, and the language is some pretty ropey
inhouse
derivative of FoxPro.
Naturally the company would be much improved by ditching this and shifting
to Java
The majority of the programmers code in this inhouse language and don't
have
much expertise in proprietory languages, since they are all junior roles
and
I guess it is most peoples 1st programming job. There is another
department
that code all the utilities we use, mainly in Delphi.
The business produces interactive voice recording applications (like phone
banking etc) But for a very specialised market.
Personally I think the whole business domain should be modeled in UML
starting now, I think there can only be benefits in doing this. This can
be
a precursor to going down the Java road or whatever. Naturally OO is the
way to go

Now I want to get more out of this job, so I would like to be involved in
this process. I'm very junior but the company seems to have the right
attitude in this regard. How should I go about getting this process
started?

Obviously I know the specifics, but general pointers would be appreciated.

My gut feeling is that this job and you do not seem to be a good match. Was
this the first job offer you got and so you took it? I am concerned that you
took a job where you describe their main programming environment as "some
pretty ropey inhouse derivative of FoxPro". I am surprised that you even
applied for this job based on your obvious inklings towards OO and Java.

Of course I am being a purist and purism doesn't pay the bills $$$$$.

Regards,

SP

 

[Robert C. Martin]

Having been on this group quite a bit over the last 5+ years and almost
finishing my second degree, with some Java certs too...
I have now managed the career change and secured my first IT position.
Problem is it is not in Java, and the language is some pretty ropey inhouse
derivative of FoxPro.

Mike,

The most important characteristic of a good programmer is a dedication
to continuous learning. You now have an opportunity to learn in a way
you have may have never learned before. You will learn about your new
company, about what they do, about why they do things the way they do,
about the history of the applications and architectures, and language
choices, etc.

Take advantage of this opportunity. Learn, learn, learn. Do not go
boiling into your new job thinking that you have all the solutions to
all their problems. You don't. However you *do* have fresh
perspective, and this will be useful to them once you have a deep
understanding of their situation, and have proven yourself to be a
help.

Take your time. Learn the company. Learn the applications. Learn
the languages. Get some successes under your belt working the way
they work now. And then, gradually, start pushing for the changes you
think are necessary.


-----
Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob) | email: (e-mail address removed)
Object Mentor Inc. | blog: www.butunclebob.com
The Agile Transition Experts | web: www.objectmentor.com
800-338-6716


"The aim of science is not to open the door to infinite wisdom,
but to set a limit to infinite error."
-- Bertolt Brecht, Life of Galileo

 

[VisionSet]

Now you are getting scary. It sounds as though you might try
to push a change on your employer, regardless of whether it
is in the employer's best interests, for the sake of resume
padding. I hope that isn't what you meant.

Actually they have done a trial java app, I don't know much about it yet.
The most I shall get up to is hopefully helping out when and if they do this
or something related again. I'm not very business oriented so unlikely to
be pushy, I'd capitulate at the first sign of a business reason. I'm totally
tech side and I just want to code and/or model and do it better. And I
appreciate that other languages, not necessarily OO will always help me.

 

[VisionSet]

watch out on the fox, 4 main areas you will have problems with , over java.

1. report gen
Crystal

2. screen gen.

No GUI

3. non-standard second source plugins.

All in house, I think we are particular insular.

4. database locale

DBF, moving to Oracle, database tables are quite standard, fields are added
and removed, some adhoc tables added per app. DAOs should easily make the
JDBC a cinch and be as simple as Fox. I don't think going the full J2EE
patterned route is necessary, but I know little about EJB so couldn't really
say.

basic background routines are easy to transfer over, as is , and java is
better for this.

Remember foxpro is a partial DATABASE language for manipulating databases (
remote or local)

Java is not.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Jason Hawryluk]

watch out on the fox, 4 main areas you will have problems with , over java.

1. report gen
2. screen gen.
3. non-standard second source plugins.
4. database locale

basic background routines are easy to transfer over, as is , and java is
better for this.

Remember foxpro is a partial DATABASE language for manipulating databases (
remote or local)

Java is not.

steve

To VisionSet



I would grasp this baby by the horns and ride with it. Learn Foxpro, the
newest version adds some new oop features and takes away some of the limits
on the db side. I don't do Fox myself today but did about 10 years ago right
after Dbase(yuk). This could be a good learning experience during witch you
could perhaps discover how the 2 could coincide if you are convinced that
you want to push you way.

Anyway sounds like they may be attached to Fox (and or Microsoft) if they
are a MS shop then you may have a very hard time changing them unless you
target c# which Fox ports to nicely from what I have read. The VM or the
..net (whopper) may not be the overhead they are looking for, as far as I
remember the fox runtime is quite small(though it may have grown) compared
to .Net and the java VM. But if they are talking about Oracle then they
don't really care about size (~|~).

Jason

 

[Jason Hawryluk]

Having been on this group quite a bit over the last 5+ years and almost
finishing my second degree, with some Java certs too...
I have now managed the career change and secured my first IT position.

Gratz !!

Problem is it is not in Java, and the language is some pretty ropey inhouse
derivative of FoxPro.
Naturally the company would be much improved by ditching this and shifting
to Java

You may have a hard time doing this ... Training for all the other juniors
would be expensive. Moving to oop from procedural can take 6 or more months
even though the newer version of Foxpro has some nice oop features.

The majority of the programmers code in this inhouse language and don't have
much expertise in proprietory languages, since they are all junior roles and
I guess it is most peoples 1st programming job.

Err what banks exactly? With out a senior designer this sounds scary...

There is another department
that code all the utilities we use, mainly in Delphi.
The business produces interactive voice recording applications (like phone
banking etc) But for a very specialised market.
Personally I think the whole business domain should be modeled in UML
starting now, I think there can only be benefits in doing this.

Else where in this post you stated that you are tech side.

Quote: < I'm not very business oriented so unlikely to
be pushy, I'd capitulate at the first sign of a business reason. I'm totally
tech side and I just want to code and/or model and do it better.>

I would expect that in order to model the business domain you need to know
the business. As you know nothing as of yet about their business I am kind
of lost as to the assumptions you make here.

This can be
a precursor to going down the Java road or whatever. Naturally OO is the
way to go

Why? See above statement... Without knowing their business, I would find it
difficult to make this assumption.

Now I want to get more out of this job, so I would like to be involved in
this process. I'm very junior but the company seems to have the right
attitude in this regard.

Sounds exciting!!

How should I go about getting this process
started?

Obviously I know the specifics, but general pointers would be appreciated.

IMHO (In no specific order)

Learn the current processes, languages etc..
Learn the business.
Don't move to fast.

Good luck !!

Jason

 

[VisionSet]

Quote: < I'm not very business oriented so unlikely to
be pushy, I'd capitulate at the first sign of a business reason. I'm totally
tech side and I just want to code and/or model and do it better.>

I would expect that in order to model the business domain you need to know
the business. As you know nothing as of yet about their business I am kind
of lost as to the assumptions you make here.

Okay, what I mean is I've not got a business head, can't spot business
opportunities, I'm not a business man. I'm okay at understanding a business
model... eventually.

 

[alex99]

Mike,

The most important characteristic of a good programmer is a dedication
to continuous learning. You now have an opportunity to learn in a way
you have may have never learned before. You will learn about your new
company, about what they do, about why they do things the way they do,
about the history of the applications and architectures, and language
choices, etc.

Take advantage of this opportunity. Learn, learn, learn. Do not go
boiling into your new job thinking that you have all the solutions to
all their problems. You don't. However you *do* have fresh
perspective, and this will be useful to them once you have a deep
understanding of their situation, and have proven yourself to be a
help.

Take your time. Learn the company. Learn the applications. Learn
the languages. Get some successes under your belt working the way
they work now. And then, gradually, start pushing for the changes you
think are necessary.


-----
Robert C. Martin (Uncle Bob) | email: (e-mail address removed)
Object Mentor Inc. | blog: www.butunclebob.com
The Agile Transition Experts | web: www.objectmentor.com
800-338-6716


"The aim of science is not to open the door to infinite wisdom,
but to set a limit to infinite error."
-- Bertolt Brecht, Life of Galileo

Amen, I agree with Uncle Bob.

Remember that it's your employer, I dare presume, who has more money
than you, they are paying you and many others. They must be doing
something that someone wants. I would not rock the boat so fast.

Sure I'll take Java over PoxPro any day but I'd rather have an income
than have too much time to surf this (excellent) news group ;-).

Cheers, congratulations and best wishes with your adventure,
Alex Kay

 

[Lurker]

but I'm pretty
sure that whacking 'Helped model changes in OO...' would go down a treat
with a future employer in the direction I want to go. Whilst they will be
less enamoured with extensive experience of FoxPro!

I'm not so sure. Of course specific experience in FoxPro may not be too
valuable
these days but, on the other hand, most employers (or their HR depts) are
rather
familiar with blurb/junk along the lines of 'Helped model...' blah blah. You
can't fly
on that unless you can show something to back your claims up.

 

[Calum Grant]

Having been on this group quite a bit over the last 5+ years and almost
finishing my second degree, with some Java certs too...
I have now managed the career change and secured my first IT position.
Problem is it is not in Java, and the language is some pretty ropey inhouse
derivative of FoxPro.
Naturally the company would be much improved by ditching this and shifting
to Java
The majority of the programmers code in this inhouse language and don't have
much expertise in proprietory languages, since they are all junior roles and
I guess it is most peoples 1st programming job. There is another department
that code all the utilities we use, mainly in Delphi.
The business produces interactive voice recording applications (like phone
banking etc) But for a very specialised market.
Personally I think the whole business domain should be modeled in UML
starting now, I think there can only be benefits in doing this. This can be
a precursor to going down the Java road or whatever. Naturally OO is the
way to go

Now I want to get more out of this job, so I would like to be involved in
this process. I'm very junior but the company seems to have the right
attitude in this regard. How should I go about getting this process
started?

Obviously I know the specifics, but general pointers would be appreciated.

You might get your big break when they do decide to move to Java, and
they need someone enthusiastic (like you) to lead it.

But remember, OO implemented badly is far worse than no OO at all. If
your company doesn't have the necessary skills, then it's a no-go. If
you're worried about your CV, consider changing jobs, since it's
difficult to work when you believe you are working on dead-end technology.

It sounds like you're too junior to influence your company: welcome to
life my friend. Have an honest talk with your boss, you never know he
might be more receptive than you think.

I'm in a similar situation actually. All our stuff is in COM, which I
think is yesterday's technology and I think .NET would be better for the
company and for my CV. Don't worry about the obnoxious replies you get
here, people have their own reasons for posting on usenet.

Calum