[OT] Indian C programmers and "u"

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by Joona I Palaste, Nov 25, 2003.

  1. I doubt the extent of your English vocabulary.

    A quick check in any dictionary should show that "doubt", used
    as a transitive verb, means "question", and indeed "question"
    will be listed as a synonym and/or as either part of the
    definition or in the usage of the word.

    Apparently this is less common today than it was historically,
    because of the dictionaries that I did look at, newer ones use
    it vaguely,

    "... to consider questionable ..."

    while older dictionaries are more explicit,

    "doubt v.t. 1) to be uncertain about; question; feel
    distrust of. ..."

    This last from a 1968 edition.
    Floyd Davidson, Nov 26, 2003
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  2. Joona I Palaste

    Heck Guest

    if ( u_love( _C ) )
    Heck, Nov 26, 2003
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  3. Joona I Palaste

    Morris Dovey Guest

    Eh? This seems to me a very strange conclusion to draw from any
    of the articles (including Brian's) posted thus far...
    True, there isn't a requirement that one be grammatically correct
    in order to learn /anything/. I would suggest, however, that
    learning might be facilitated by clear communication; and that
    clear communication is, in turn, facilitated by the use of
    language that does not distract from the message content.

    Comp.lang.c (and other technical newsgroups) seem to value clear,
    concise (and conventional) language skills. One of the norms of
    the group is that articles/postings be in English. From time to
    time people have been asked not to use extreme abbreviation in
    their articles. Neither the norm nor the requests for
    conventional language use have been directed toward them because
    of their nationality.

    Joona and Brian are both frequent posters to comp.lang.c; and
    I've never seen evidence in any of their posts to indicate bias
    against anyone because of their nationality. I think both asked
    questions, not to offend, but because they each hoped to learn
    I'm not sure there is any (general) skepticism. My personal guess
    would be that about half are above average and about half are
    below average. If you tell me that <any nationality> programmers
    are either all above average or all below average, /then/ I might
    have reason to be skeptical...
    Oh, sorry. I'm a maverick who finds "unfair" and "unjust" topical
    - because they seriously impair any group's ability to function.
    Morris Dovey, Nov 26, 2003
  4. Joona I Palaste

    Anupam Guest

    Oh I assure you that you have no idea. I know people in the IITs and
    BITS Pilani which are among the premier institutions of India who
    properly go on one meal a day to support their education.
    Let me tell you about an incident in an engineering college here. It
    is a tradition in the under-grad colleges that freshers have to face a
    round of introductions before being inducted into the college
    community. So my elder brother was getting a junior freshman to
    introduce himself. Everything was done and over with. Now at the end
    of the session he decided to treat this chap to a nice dinner to have
    everything straightened out. So he invited him over to a nearby
    restaurant for a big dinner. Till now the guy was pretty cool about
    stuff. But now he refused to touch the food. This inspite of the fact
    that he was a freshman and it is not exactly politically correct to
    refuse anything to a senior. At this my brother pressed a bit at him.
    He broke into tears and said that his family had sold their entire
    farmland for securing him an admission to BITS. He said that it would
    be vulgar of him to partake of such an enormous meal when his family
    have to live on menial labour and possibly only one meal a day. Where
    would you think this guy would have achance to learn the Queen's
    English. The motivation which got him into BITS was good enough. To
    expect him to have perfect English sense would be an overkill. By the
    way I'm sure he would now be a high placed individual with a great
    deal of academic and career-wise success coming his way.
    Anupam, Nov 26, 2003
  5. Joona I Palaste

    James Hu Guest

    However, it makes it easier to communicate with each other.
    I thought English was one of the official languages in India.

    -- James
    James Hu, Nov 26, 2003
  6. Joona I Palaste

    Anupam Guest

    At the end of this sick series of messages I would only like to say
    that this discussion has shaken me to the core. There is a lot of
    hatred around. that is all I can see. I would not like to contribute
    to this any more. I will only reply further in this thread if there is
    a factual misrepresentation anywhere. Pardon my English and may God
    forgive you for your intolerant attitude.
    As far as Joona Palaste goes, I respect this person's knowledge of
    the C programming language and postings on even my school groups
    mention your website as a good resource to look into.I have enjoyed a
    lot of beautiful discussions on the C language in all its infinite
    breadth since I joined this group. I am highly saddened by the turn
    this has taken. And yet I have admired many things about western
    countries. But in the year 2003, all that you still see are
    reflections of the groupisms of the real world. One would expect that
    we as a race of humans would have learnt.. or learned (I don't care..
    I am not a linguistic God ... at no point of time have I said I am)
    from our experiences in the real world ... from wars which have still
    left there scars from times much before my birth ... from the
    thousands of people dead and dying and living in pitiable conditions
    across the globe even as I type ... and why?... only due to an
    amplification of the traits seen here.
    As far as one of my countrymen remarked, I would only like to say
    that I respect my country a lot... but beyond that I respect my world
    ... and even beyond that the Truth. Please infer the meaning inherent
    in my remarks after looking through this sieve.
    Anupam, Nov 26, 2003
  7. Not in the channels I use. People using such lame abbreviations are
    generally kicked (or even banned), unless there are extreme mitigating
    Richard Heathfield, Nov 26, 2003
  8. Joona I Palaste

    Anupam Guest

    First of all please do not live inside a self-imposed bubble of the
    ever endearing city life. Who said that money is the be-all and
    end-all. Satisfaction is what the poor farmer has.. much beyond what
    u and i do. Think about it. A splintered life with all the money and
    all the conveniences but no truth. Oh village life is one big peace of
    mind. Be there.. then you will understand. Many of the people here and
    everywhere get frustrated and done in when they think about where it
    is going. What the hell are you doing anyway...Coding for 10 years ...
    then becoming a manager. Marrying ..producing kids... and dying at the
    age of 60... Living the same live as countless others.. Financial
    poverty can enrich.. believe me.
    A good programmer.. a really good one.. is in it for other things
    besides money.
    No one country is the trend setter in anything. No community is good
    at programming as a whole... thats :). I just wanted to correct a
    misconception that someone had. Just look at a people posting on this
    group and you will see a veritable cross-section of the world.
    Anupam, Nov 26, 2003
  9. Joona I Palaste

    dfg Guest

    Now that I look, perhaps there is none. The post from Joona really
    bothered me at first and I should not have written a reply as quickly as
    I did.

    All said and done however, I believe that this post should have been
    worded much more carefully. It was quite unlike his regular postings.
    dfg, Nov 26, 2003
  10. Joona I Palaste

    Jirka Klaue Guest

    He shouldn't have posted this at all.
    It's not the first of this kind, though.

    Jirka Klaue, Nov 26, 2003
  11. Oh I assure you that he does. The choice is not between grammar and food
    (which would be like choosing between a tractor and the President of
    Italy), but between clear and unclear communication.

    Those who seek help would do well to communicate clearly with those from
    whom they seek help.

    Most of those who provide help in this newsgroup are very patient with those
    for whom English is not their first language, and rightly so. Nobody here
    expects perfect grammar, spelling, and punctuation in every article.
    Indeed, it is generally considered unacceptable to criticise someone's
    article purely on spelling grounds. But where the writer is *deliberately*
    obfuscating the communication for mere reasons of so-called "style", he is
    abusing the newsgroup, and it is perfectly sensible to ask him to drop the
    133tn3s5 and write intelligibly.
    Richard Heathfield, Nov 26, 2003
  12. You are over-reacting.
    It shouldn't have done.
    Only of inane abbreviations like "u" for "you".
    Then try opening your eyes.
    Then don't. All you are contributing is incomprehension.

    <rant snipped>
    Richard Heathfield, Nov 26, 2003
  13. Joona I Palaste

    Randy Howard Guest

    It seems that you are communicating with the wrong westerners.
    Far, far from stylish.
    Sadly, you may be correct, at least with the "youth", which undoubtedly
    says nothing positive about our future.
    Definitely not.
    Randy Howard, Nov 26, 2003
  14. Joona I Palaste

    Mark Haigh Guest

    Piss off then. You're going to have to grow a thicker skin if you are
    going to last here on Usenet.

    There's quite a difference between wars, people dying, etc, and an
    offtopic Usenet thread. Get some perspective.

    Except for Dan Pop, everybody occasionally posts the wrong thing to the
    wrong group. Since Joona has been a regular poster here for several
    years, most of the regulars will give him a mulligan this time, and save
    the flames for the next occasion.

    Certainly nobody is begging you to stay, particularly if you persist in
    being overly sensitive about something that should not upset any normal
    adult person.

    Mark F. Haigh
    Mark Haigh, Nov 26, 2003
  15. How do you derive this from the post you quote, or from any other
    of the messages in this thread? I've only seen one message in this
    thread proposing some mindless idea of one nation's superiority
    to others, and that message wasn't promoting the USA. This was a
    discussion of apparently deliberate decisions to use silly
    abbreviations, and has moved to a discussion of different meanings
    of the same words in various versions of English.
    Indeed. Many people here go to considerable trouble to help people
    who appear to have difficulty with English. The issue is not people's
    lack of English skills, it is people's deliberate use of silly
    abbreviations which hinder communication.
    What scepticism over Indian programmers? I've not seen any in this
    thread. Could you provide some examples?
    J. J. Farrell, Nov 26, 2003
  16. Joona I Palaste

    Grumble Guest


    A masterful troll. It should be archived for posterity! ;-)
    Grumble, Nov 26, 2003
  17. Joona I Palaste

    Jirka Klaue Guest

    J. J. Farrell wrote:
    Huh? How did this thread start?

    JP> Why is it that *every single* Indian C programmer
    JP> I have seen on this newsgroup writes "u" for "you"?

    JP> Do they have a law in India forcing schools to
    JP> teach mangled English or something?

    Does this count as scepticism?

    Jirka Klaue, Nov 26, 2003
  18. Joona I Palaste

    Chris Dollin Guest

    Erm ... I made no special reference, but I think my quest for neat
    (stylish?) metaphor got derailed.

    "Stylish" doesn't have to mean "good", just as yoghurt in the engine
    oil doesn't have to be good - and when noticable, may be bad.
    Chris Dollin, Nov 26, 2003
  19. And in what way is this any more offensive than the abbreviations that
    you use all the time?

    Do they have a law in Finland forcing you to make sweeping
    generalisations and behave like a bigoted jerk, or something?
    Slartibartfast, Nov 26, 2003
  20. In reference to pandapower saying
    Hmmm ... depends what pandapower meant by the term. I took
    it to mean some question being raised over Indian programmers'
    competence as programmers, and I've not seen that. If he
    was referring to Joona's original message, then Joona clearly
    gives his reasons for it in the message itself - he referred
    to Indians in particular because he perceived that all messages
    he'd seen from Indians showed the issue.

    I think Joona was wrong, but not greatly so. I've noticed a
    substantial increase in this usage recently, and I've noticed
    that a lot of posters who appear to be Indian are using it.
    It's certainly not all Indians, nor is it exclusively Indians.
    I'd be interested to know why it appears to have become a
    fairly common usage among Indian programmers. It wouldn't be
    surprising if people found Joona's suggested reason to be
    offensive, though it was clearly meant as joke.
    J. J. Farrell, Nov 26, 2003
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