Semi-OT: Question for professionals about Web Developer/Programmer/Designer jobs

[Jeffrey Silverman]

Hi, all. I posted to PHP and HTML newsgroups as the topic is equally
related, at least from my POV.

So, anyway, I'm searching for jobs. I have a strong PHP/MySQL/HTML Web
developer/programmer skill set. AS with many people working on the Web, I
also have a fairly strong design/graphic skill set. But as you (Web
Developer professionals) are certainly well aware, there is a big
difference between a "Web Designer" and a "Web Programmer".

However, employers have no idea! No friggin idea.

Here is my example. A listing on Monster.com, from which the following
snippets were extracted:

(1) Position title -- "Web Developer/Designer"
....well, here is a problem already. I don't think that, say, in a print
design agency, one would expect that the guy that runs the presses would
also be the guy (or girl, not trying to discriminate here) who shoots
photos or lays out the page in Quark or creates the graphics.

Why is a "Web xxxxxx-er" always supposed to have *design* AND
*programming* skills??


(2) "...seeking a Web Designer who is very skilled in graphical design and
creation of user friendly web pages using a common industry tool such as
Dreamweaver MX (preferred)...Will be called on to create new, fully
functioning web pages from "soup to nuts"...you will be expected to
assist, as part of the IT Team...intranet web development projects,
primarily using the LAMP open source technologies..."

Okay. So I am supposed to be good with DW and also know how to program in
PHP, SQL, Perl, etc? What the hell difference does it make what WYSIWYG
HTML markup tool I use anyways? How about if I code pages by hand in Vi??
(I do, BTW).



(2) "...Web site Graphic Design expertise is the key requirement with this
position..." and "...Bachelors degree in Computer Science is preferred..."

Why would any sane person expect that someone with a BS in CS would have
any Clue (TM) on how to properly design anything other than computer code???



Allright, I think you see what I am getting at. Now the crux of my problem
is this: I am much more a Web Programmer. I can do a Website "soup to
nuts" as they are asking in the ad. However my portfolio sucks nuts
because I mostly create *code*, not *graphics*.

How have you professionals out there handled problems like this? What do
you do for a "portfolio" when all of your relevant experience is hidden
behind password-protected sites? ...or in the programming backend?

etc.

I just wanted to throw this out there to see what others have done to come
to grips with this situation.

Thanks! Later...

 

[nice.guy.nige]

[follow-ups set to news:alt.html]
While the city slept, Jeffrey Silverman ([email protected]) feverishly
typed...

[job seeking woes]

(2) "...seeking a Web Designer who is very skilled in graphical
design and creation of user friendly web pages using a common
industry tool such as Dreamweaver MX (preferred)...Will be called on
to create new, fully functioning web pages from "soup to nuts"...you
will be expected to
assist, as part of the IT Team...intranet web development projects,
primarily using the LAMP open source technologies..."

Okay. So I am supposed to be good with DW and also know how to
program in PHP, SQL, Perl, etc? What the hell difference does it
make what WYSIWYG HTML markup tool I use anyways? How about if I
code pages by hand in Vi?? (I do, BTW).

They will be expecting you to work within a team where the tool of choice
amongst the team (note: not necessarily *chosen* by the team) is DW MX.
Programs like DW have pretty useful content management tools[1] (where
common or library items can be included in a page) where changes to those
items (whilst using DW) will initiate changes to all the dependant files. If
you start making adjustments to code in another tool it is quite possible
you will break this functionality. DW also has team management features
which could be broken if you start using other tools to edit the code. This
is not to say that if you were to join this company you would be forced to
use DW for ever. You would of course be free to suggest changes to the
current working practice. This is true of any job you go into - you will be
expected to be able to work within the team using the tools and procedures
prescribed whether the job is web development or plumbing.

[1] This does not mean that I am saying there are not better ways of doing
what DW does here.

(2) "...Web site Graphic Design expertise is the key requirement with
this position..." and "...Bachelors degree in Computer Science is
preferred..."

Why would any sane person expect that someone with a BS in CS would
have any Clue (TM) on how to properly design anything other than
computer code???

This is a particular bugbear of mine. I have plenty of experience in
software and web development. I just don't happen to have a degree (in *any*
subject[2]). I applied for a web designer/developer role at the college I
was temping in last year. One of the Essential Criteria for the job was "a
degree, preferably in a computer-related discipline". I spoke to someone in
HR about it, as I more than satisfied all the other Essential Criteria (the
ones actually related to the work) and most of the Desirable Criteria, and
they suggested I put down that "although I do not have a degree-level
qualification at this time, I have several years relevant work-experience. I
would - of course - be willing to take a degree course if it is essential to
the post, in my own time if necessary". I submitted a glowing application
where I provided documented evidence for all the other Essential Criteria
and for the Desirable Criteria that I met - for the two Desirables that I
didn't meet I had already started looking into gaining the skills needed to
cover them, and made that clear on my application. I didn't even get an
interview! Speaking to colleagues in the college they all agreed that it was
the lack of degree - it is college policy not to interview anyone that does
not meet all the Essential Criteria...

[2] It never ceases to amaze me that some companies are willing to take
someone on with a degree whether or not it is in a relevant discipline,
rather than take someone on with the relevant work experience but no degree.
I worked for a software company a few years back. Their policy was only to
employ graduates, but at the time I applied they were desperate for someone
to fill the role so apparantly decided to "take a risk". Sometime later I
was talking to my programming colleagues about their degrees. One had a
degree in maths, another in physics, another in English, and so on. Turned
out I was actually the most qualified programmer in the company with NVQ 2
Software Creation!

Allright, I think you see what I am getting at. Now the crux of my
problem is this: I am much more a Web Programmer. I can do a Website
"soup to
nuts" as they are asking in the ad. However my portfolio sucks nuts
because I mostly create *code*, not *graphics*.

If you know anyone who is good with graphics / design, then see if they can
help out. You could have a joint portfolio site - his/her design skills and
your coding skills.

How have you professionals out there handled problems like this? What
do you do for a "portfolio" when all of your relevant experience is
hidden behind password-protected sites? ...or in the programming
backend?

Put up samples of the coding techniques you have used. Explain what you were
required to do, and how you did it, with code snippets and a link to a
working (dummy) example. Be sure to phrase your explanations well enough
that anyone from HR or even web *design* can understand it - your coding
expertise will be evident to a developer through your code, but if designers
or HR cannot fathom out what you were doing then they are going to blank
over, and it is quite likely that they will be the ones who would want to
call you.

Hope that helps...

Cheers,
Nige

 

[Augustus]

So, anyway, I'm searching for jobs. I have a strong PHP/MySQL/HTML Web
developer/programmer skill set. AS with many people working on the Web, I
also have a fairly strong design/graphic skill set. But as you (Web
Developer professionals) are certainly well aware, there is a big
difference between a "Web Designer" and a "Web Programmer".

Often it doesn't really matter what title you use in this field... it
usually boils down to the same thing.

There aren't alot of really big web design businesses out there, most of
them are 1 or 2 people, and so because of that to get ahead in this field
you have to be abit of a "jack of all trades". Nowadays, a successful web
developer should be able to: design a site, do programming, design a
database, work with graphics programs, know basics of marketing/advertising,
search engine optimization, write copy, and do sales.

Some of the skills you can get around... if you aren't handy with
programming and database design you can use pregenerated code... if you
aren't so great at graphics you can use premade graphics or hire a graphic
designer. But for the most part, they are all valuable tools to have.

Here is my example. A listing on Monster.com, from which the following
snippets were extracted:

(1) Position title -- "Web Developer/Designer"
...well, here is a problem already. I don't think that, say, in a print
design agency, one would expect that the guy that runs the presses would
also be the guy (or girl, not trying to discriminate here) who shoots
photos or lays out the page in Quark or creates the graphics.

Like I was saying above, you don't usually see a big web development
company... IE: one that has a deparment for PHP or ASP programmers, one that
has a department of graphics designers, etc. This is because in order to
survive and retain your employees you would need a constant flow of jobs...
if your company had 5 employees and they all want to make atleast $2000 a
month then you'd need to be bringing in atleast $10,000 a month in work plus
whatever you want your own income to be, plus whatever your business
expenses (computer equipment, internet access, office rent, etc).
Obviously some companies can survive like that, but they are few and working
in almost a whole different realm of design and operations than somebody
working alone out of their home.

A few big companies might maintain a web development department, to upkeep
the company website and intranet, but again the people there usually have
all the skills for the job and these departments are typically kept small.

Why is a "Web xxxxxx-er" always supposed to have *design* AND
*programming* skills??

Usually when you see a job posting like this, its because the company wants
to bring in somebody to assist on a job or for a series of upcoming jobs
(meaning these are usually contract positions). Again, because its hard to
support having 2 or 3 programmers and 1 or 2 graphics designers on staff
they need to cover their bases... if its a full time job and they have only
1 ASP/PHP programmer and he/she takes 2 weeks vacation then anything they
are doing that needs those skills ends up being put on the backburner while
they wait for the person to come back... otherwise they have to contract out
the position and end up paying the vacationing programmer as well as whoever
is doing the contract work.

Its ideal for these companies to have people to fall back on, where they can
say "Ok, Bob is off for 2 weeks... so during that time Joe will be doing the
programming on the Smith Job"

(2) "...seeking a Web Designer who is very skilled in graphical design and
creation of user friendly web pages using a common industry tool such as
Dreamweaver MX (preferred)...

Okay. So I am supposed to be good with DW and also know how to program in
PHP, SQL, Perl, etc? What the hell difference does it make what WYSIWYG
HTML markup tool I use anyways? How about if I code pages by hand in Vi??
(I do, BTW).

Not much you can say here except that the company usually has its own way of
doing things. As for what program/tool you prefer to use... you have to
remember that as a "real" business and company they have to deal in software
licenses and all the legalities. If you were teaming up with a buddy on a
web job you and he didn't have VI and PhotoShop, you might not think
anything about installing a copy of the programs on his laptop so you guys
can work together...

(2) "...Web site Graphic Design expertise is the key requirement with this
position..." and "...Bachelors degree in Computer Science is preferred..."

Why would any sane person expect that someone with a BS in CS would have
any Clue (TM) on how to properly design anything other than computer

code???

There might be more reasons, but 3 reasons for asking for a "Bachelors
degree in Computer Science" I can think of off the top of my head are:
- Bachelors degrees aren't offered by those small "quickie education"
schools with 3-6 month "learn how to build web pages" courses. This doesn't
matter to everybody, but it is important to some because the quality of
education and how they teach varies from school to school... in my own case,
when I am hiring on somebody and put out a call for resumes, any that come
in with (a certain schools name) listed as the main school I just throw out
without reading them. This is because the way (they, the school) teaches
students is by just putting them in a study table with a computer and a
workbook and anybody can cheat their way through the course with a 100% mark
and having actually learned nothing. If I got a resume from somebody from
that school I don't know how to take it: if I get one applicant who says "I
got 98% overall grade in the course!" how do I know they didn't cheat? If
it said "I got 85% overall grade in the course!" then I have to think "this
person must lack problem solving skills because they didn't figure out they
could have cheated and gotten 100%"
- Related to the above... another reason is the overall schooling of the
person. A bachelor's degree means they must have put 3 or 4 years into
this... its the field they must actually want to go into, they went to a
solid school (that offered degrees) and probably would have all the skills
plus some extra ones that might be useful in the company.
- And also related to the above, if they went to proper schooling that means
its a pretty good chance that they know proper coding principals, structured
database design and how to work with program management utilities and
methods.

How have you professionals out there handled problems like this? What do
you do for a "portfolio" when all of your relevant experience is hidden
behind password-protected sites? ...or in the programming backend?

Initially, when I was freelancing, I used the yellow pages and not a
portfolio website... small companies/businesses/web jobs would usually
just call up and tell you what they want/need, we would elaborate on it as
far as what we could do for them and then give them a quote. If they were
happy with the quote we got the job and I don't think anybody ever asked to
see a portfolio.
When it came to bigger jobs if we gave them a website to look at our
portfolio that would put the ball in their court and we would have to wait
for them to go look at the site and then get back to us... you don't want to
give up that ball, so the best practice is to arrange a chance to meet up
with them where you can sit down and show them some of your portfolio sites
and explain what you have done in the past and what you can do for them.
This keeps the ball in your court because once you walk out that door if you
don't have a definite answer you know they've seen your portfolio and gotten
the whole "what we can do for you!" speech... so you can go home and wait a
day or two and then give them a call back.

But... thats "being a freelance web developer" which isn't quite what you
are looking for since you are looking more towards getting hired on full
time/contract somewhere.

A long while back I was in your position... I was looking for a full time
regular job that would give me job security and a regular paycheque coming
in, but my skills were mainly in ASP and MS SQL. What I did was still put
up a portfolio site... when it came to jobs I'd done that were mostly
programming/database work I would explain on the portoflio pages what I did
and what the site does... and then include code snippets and/or a fake
version of the site that they could log in and check out. I also did up a
few of my own sites (city directories, job boards, fan sites, etc) that
would show off my skills where since I was the "client" I could go in there
and show off the backend and programming... the other advantage here was
that these sites were "live" and started to generate a little extra revenue
which I used to supplement my job search (in the end I never did the "get a
regular job" thing... all these little sites I built for my portfolio
started making enough revenue that I could survive on)

As long as you keep your own version of the sites you built I wouldn't worry
too much about it and what you can show any potential employer... what I
found was that in the end if you applied for a job they would typically give
your portfolio a cursory glance and then if they were interested in you
would actually ask you in for an interview and then while you were there
they'd have you go over your portfolio where you can explain in detail what
you did and you can go in and show off your code and the whole back end
(without compromising any of the "live" data/information the client would
have put up on the site)

Clint

 

[Jeffrey Silverman]

code???

There might be more reasons, but 3 reasons for asking for a "Bachelors
degree in Computer Science" I can think of off the top of my head are:

All of your points are good points. However, the point I am making here
is merely that a BS in *Computer Science* in no way indicates that a
person is going to be able to do any sort of graphic design! I'm just
befuddled that someone hiring for a Web Design position would even *want*
a CS graduate! Emphasis on *design* here. I've known computer scientists,
and they (usually) aren't designers, that's for sure!


(Oh, and BTW, I actually have a pretty good (great, in many respects) job
as a Web Developer. I just was searching around a bit to see what's out
there, you know)

later...

 

[Michael Vilain]

All of your points are good points. However, the point I am making here
is merely that a BS in *Computer Science* in no way indicates that a
person is going to be able to do any sort of graphic design! I'm just
befuddled that someone hiring for a Web Design position would even *want*
a CS graduate! Emphasis on *design* here. I've known computer scientists,
and they (usually) aren't designers, that's for sure!


(Oh, and BTW, I actually have a pretty good (great, in many respects) job
as a Web Developer. I just was searching around a bit to see what's out
there, you know)

later...

I'm doing volunteer work on a web site for a non-profit. My background
is programming (15+ years with 5+ years doing sysadmin on UNIX boxen).
I know enough about design to lay a sight out so that it works, but
there are unwritten rules and a sense of "craftsmanship" in the web
design which I feel I lack because I'm self-taught. For example:

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20000109.html
http://www.csszengarden.com/
[the "frames are evil!" religious discussion]
[the "separate content and presentation with CSS" discussion]

You'll come across job requirements in _any_ field that seem rediculous.
You never know who or why something got posted this way. My degree in
chemistry hasn't been a problem. My school didn't even have a CS
department back when I was there; it was "Math and Computer Science".
That's more of an issue (how long I've been in the field).

 

[Jeffrey Silverman]

You'll come across job requirements in _any_ field that seem rediculous.

Yes, this is certainly true.

I guess I am wondering how to get past the obviously ridiculous when the
HR person who typed up the job req. doesn't know the difference between a
multi dimensional array and a multi directional butt plug.

And when I say, "get past," I mean, "Get my resume past the HR bozo and
into the hands of someone who knows what this job actually calls for"


HR genius: "So let's see here, checklist...hmmm...needs a degree in
kumquat handling, check... right-handed shamisen playing skills, check...
hmmm... able to leap tall buildngs...check... omnipotent control of the
universe... check. Hmmm... I can't find a degree in <fill in unnecessary
degree field here>! Toss this one away!"


later...

 

[jerry gitomer]

All of your points are good points. However, the point I am making here
is merely that a BS in *Computer Science* in no way indicates that a
person is going to be able to do any sort of graphic design! I'm just
befuddled that someone hiring for a Web Design position would even *want*
a CS graduate! Emphasis on *design* here. I've known computer scientists,
and they (usually) aren't designers, that's for sure!


(Oh, and BTW, I actually have a pretty good (great, in many respects) job
as a Web Developer. I just was searching around a bit to see what's out
there, you know)

later...

Another factor to consider is that as far as jobs are concerned
it is a buyer's market. I have had HR people tell me that when
they run an ad they get hundreds of resumes. When that happens
there are too many resumes to give each candidate proper
consideration and the presence/lack of a degree may be used to
reduce the number of candidates to a manageable number.

 

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/

Another factor to consider is that as far as jobs are concerned
it is a buyer's market. I have had HR people tell me that when
they run an ad they get hundreds of resumes.

I windsurf with a highly-qualified web/database developer who has been out of
work for over two years.

He says that every job posting is essentially a lottery: one job gets posted,
200+ eminantly-qualified people show up...one gets hired.

 

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

(1) Position title -- "Web Developer/Designer"

<snip>

I think, by designer in Web Application Developer context, one who
knows basics of HTML and formatting it with some CSS than one who
works on Photoshop or so. I personally feel, it is mandatory otherwise
you'll end up with crappy codes something like at

(2) "...Web site Graphic Design expertise is the key requirement with this
position..." and "...Bachelors degree in Computer Science is preferred..."

<snip>

That seems to be Ok. In India, even if you have a degree, you have to
take puzzle tests, and other funny diagrammatic tests;-)

 

[Phil Roberts]

HR genius: "So let's see here, checklist...hmmm...needs a degree
in kumquat handling, check... right-handed shamisen playing
skills, check... hmmm... able to leap tall buildngs...check...
omnipotent control of the universe... check. Hmmm... I can't
find a degree in <fill in unnecessary degree field here>! Toss
this one away!"

Job applications: When in doubt, lie.

Not that I'd know mind you. I'm taking an indefinite hiatus from
applying for "proper" jobs simply because I find that the jobs I
want and know I can do I'm barred from due to lack of trophy
qualifications, and the jobs I can actually get are usually shit
that I don't actually want. Frankly I think I'll stick with hanging
clothes until I can get my enthusiasm back. Competing with pig-
ignorant HR requirements has pretty much drained my will to have
anything to do with I.T.

 

[Eric Bohlman]

You'll come across job requirements in _any_ field that seem
rediculous. You never know who or why something got posted this way.

Oftentimes if an employer is requesting a peculiarly specific combination
of skills, it means that they already have a particular candidate in mind
but they're required, either by law (if the particular candidate is a
foreign national) or by company policy, to go through the motions of doing
an actual search. In this case the objective of the whole process is to
*avoid* finding any qualified candidates other than the pre-chosen one. In
essence, the employer doesn't truly have a vacancy.

 

[Geoff Berrow]

So, anyway, I'm searching for jobs. I have a strong PHP/MySQL/HTML Web
developer/programmer skill set. AS with many people working on the Web, I
also have a fairly strong design/graphic skill set. But as you (Web
Developer professionals) are certainly well aware, there is a big
difference between a "Web Designer" and a "Web Programmer".

I've a degree in multidisciplinary design, good html, CSS and PHP skills
etc. and teaching qualification.

I've applied several times for web developer/designer jobs and never
even made it to an interview. Could be just bad luck but may age (52)
may have something to do with it also.

 

[Henk Verhoeven]

Hi Jeffrey,

Maybe you should have taken Dilbert a little more serieus? Wake up man!
They're clueless managers! In fact, most of them don't even know key
software management literature like 'The Mythical Man-month' and
'Peopleware'!

Then what would you expect? All thay can do is compare some acronyms
like 'PHP', 'HTML' and 'DW' from a shortlist they extracted from a job
or project description full of technical slang that was only made up to
make an impression on managers like them so that the project gets funded
anyway. Ordinary people don't even have a remote idea what software
development is about. They have to put a lot of trust in you and they
have VERY little information to base that trust on.

See it like this: to get a job you need the kind of 'communication
skills' Dogbert has. Not technical skills. Those are only relevant once
you have the job (if you want to keep it ;-) ). The communication skills
will be relevant all the way, becuase you will have to keep 'marketing'
whatever you do, otherwise no one will understand your importance. In
the Dogbert way: Don't try to impress anyone with your technical skills
unless you know about the particular person that that is going to work
on him. (It rarily works on a her). To most people technical skills
only mean a frightening confrontation with their own uncertainty and
failure. Instead, say thinks they can understand and that are relevant
to them. That gives them the impression that you understand them.

In other words, if you apply for a job, you need to find out what they
want to hear. And that is not necessarily what is asked for in the
advertisement. There is always a history behind the advertisement.
Projects, people, silly misunderstandings, stupid mistakes, hidden
agenda's, unacknowledged fears, and maybe even humor, hope and good
will. Organizations are not like formal system. They are not logical,
but in an erratic way they do work (or go bankrupt or so, but that may
not be the kind of places you want to work). Try to get that intuition
about how people cope, how they survive in an incomprehensable
environment and even manage to get some work done, and maybe even to get
it to lead to something usefull in the end.

After a while you may find out that being a good listener, being able to
read between the lines is an important skill for a software developer.
So after all what began like a manipulative Dogbert aproach to getting a
job might become a way of telling them you are really qualified ;-)

Greetings,

Henk Verhoeven,
www.metaclass.nl