F
Frank Goenninger DG1SBG
John Bokma said:
John Bokma not following netiquette. Killfiled. If I can find out how
to report this to the relevant ISP I will do so.
Frank
John Bokma not following netiquette. Killfiled. If I can find out how
to report this to the relevant ISP I will do so.
Frank
M
Mike Schilling
John Bokma said:
Nitpick: _The Palace of Love_
J
John Bokma
Mike Schilling said:
Aargh! The only excuse I can give for that huge mistake is that I am
currently reading "In the net of dreams" :-(
M
Mike Schilling
John Bokma said:
You have another excuse in the last Demon Princes title: _The Book of
Dreams_.
M
Mike Schilling
P.L.Hayes said:
No one that I know of is trying to censor Xah. It's the form his postings
take that cause problems, not the content.
Bringing facts to their attention? If Dreamhost has given him notice of
termination, it's for violating their policies, not because people have told
them "I don't like him".
He's free to find another ISP and *not* violate their rules.
P
P.L.Hayes
Mike Schilling said:
Having read through the threads in question, I cannot agree on either
point. If form alone had been the problem, Xah's sporadic
cross-posting to a handful of related newsgroups would presumably be
the sole cause for complaint and yet that hardly seems to me to
justify complaining to his ISP or to Google, let alone to his
_web_hosting company. But that is not what has happened anyway:
complainers have referred to Xah's posts as being off-topic - in some
cases, "drivel" and "rants" - an opinion not shared by many more
than half those who have posted to the threads. Fair enough - one is
entitled to one's opinion - but it would be a mischaracterisation of
what the complainers have actually written in their posts and have
claimed to have written in their complaints to Dreamhost to say that
form alone has been the issue.
If you believe that what Xah has done was such a serious breach of
netiquette and caused such serious problems that the appropriate
course of action was to demand that his ISP and even his website host
deny him access to the Internet, then having done so would not,
strictly speaking, have been an attempt to censor Xah. But to maintain
such a premise is, as others have opined, rather eccentric and
overblown and if those who have written complaints about Xah to his
ISP or to his website host have not deliberately meant to censor him,
that is beside the point and no good reason to support their actions.
I find it rather difficult anyway to believe that there is no
deliberate attempt at censorship in the light of threads such as this
one:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/co...nk=st&q=Bokma+Xah+Lee&rnum=3#29458dc7da626a27
"I rather account kill by ISP :-D."
Exactly. Such underhand and manipulative behaviour is what makes this
whole business so distasteful and why I find the actions of those who
have tried to remedy perceived 'problems' in this way quite despicable.
Oh! Well that's okay then.
Paul.
?
=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Dra=BEen_Gemi=E6?=
I can't see the way how Xah Lee could be on topic in
comp.lang.java.programmer. He is not a programmer,
and does not write about neither programming nor
Java.
He should stick to philosophy and advocacy groups.
DG
comp.lang.java.programmer. He is not a programmer,
and does not write about neither programming nor
Java.
He should stick to philosophy and advocacy groups.
DG
B
Boris Borcic
Obviously this wisdom is getting stale and should be updated to something
like "There is so much noise we can't hear each other, but I will defend
to the death a chance to get heard for whatever you might have to say that's
intelligent (while not necessarily from your own mouth)".
Besides, it is not clear that Voltaire really said that.
Cheers, BB
I
ilitzroth
"There is so much noise we can't hear each other, but I will defend
You write a much cooler quote!
No? well I guess it's alright to harrass Xah then.
Immanuel Litzroth
You write a much cooler quote!
No? well I guess it's alright to harrass Xah then.
Immanuel Litzroth
P
Pisin Bootvong
Boris said:
But we might not have enough intelligence to decide what is intelligent
and what is not.
J
John Bokma
Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5
newsgroups? Or maybe work on your spelling, harass is with one r, but
maybe you didn't read the subject, which wouldn't amaze me, since you
sound like you should be spending time on MySpace OMG!.
M
Max M
John said:
I assume that the single l in alright is the courteous misspelling that
should allways be in a posting, when correcting other peoples speling?
--
hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark
http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science
Phone: +45 66 11 84 94
Mobile: +45 29 93 42 96
D
David Squire
Max said:
Nope. Oxford English Dictionary has:
alright
a frequent spelling of all right.
And Merriam-Webster has:
alright
Pronunciation: (")ol-'rIt, 'ol-"
Function: adverb or adjective
: ALL RIGHT
usage The one-word spelling alright appeared some 75 years after all
right itself had reappeared from a 400-year-long absence. Since the
early 20th century some critics have insisted alright is wrong, but it
has its defenders and its users. It is less frequent than all right but
remains in common use especially in journalistic and business
publications. It is quite common in fictional dialogue, and is used
occasionally in other writing <the first two years of medical school
were alright -- Gertrude Stein>.
DS
I
ilitzroth
Your first question should be: Is it alright that Xah harasses 5
Dear John,
Should I ask myself the question about Xah first, or work on my
spelling?
I knew har*ass it had 1 or more r's in it but I couldn't figure out the
exact number.
That makes me suspect my spelling is good enough and I should dive
right into the
Xah issue. What do you think John?
I don't get the MySpace OMG reference, but rest assured John, you are
still my favorite
newsnet nazi. I know you have been feeling pretty insecure about this
Xah fellow, but
you know that is just silly, don't you?
Yours truly
Immanuel
P.S Do not hesitate to comment on form, spelling or style of this
message. I am always
eager to learn.
Dear John,
Should I ask myself the question about Xah first, or work on my
spelling?
I knew har*ass it had 1 or more r's in it but I couldn't figure out the
exact number.
That makes me suspect my spelling is good enough and I should dive
right into the
Xah issue. What do you think John?
I don't get the MySpace OMG reference, but rest assured John, you are
still my favorite
newsnet nazi. I know you have been feeling pretty insecure about this
Xah fellow, but
you know that is just silly, don't you?
Yours truly
Immanuel
P.S Do not hesitate to comment on form, spelling or style of this
message. I am always
eager to learn.
M
Mumia W.
Max said:
I'm glad you caught the usage error and another fine example of Bokma
hypocrisy.
People need to point it out because Bokma's hypocrisy is invisible to
him.
Xah's posting on-topic messages to 5 newsgroups about two times per week
isn't harassment, but Bokma's attempts to cut off Xah *are*.
M
Mumia W.
David said:
American Heritage Dictionary:
Usage Note: [...] one who uses alright, especially in formal writing,
runs the risk that readers may view it as an error or as the willing
breaking of convention.
That's sounds kinda like what Xah does, and that's why I flag it as
hypocrisy.
J
John Bokma
J
John Bokma
Funny that someone diagnosing insecurity needs to refer to Nazi's in an
attempt to promote a feeling.
X
Xah Lee
The Condition of Industrial Programers
Xah Lee, 2006-05
Before i stepped into the computing industry, my first industrial
programing experience is at Wolfram Research Inc as a intern in 1995.
(Wolfram Research is famously known for their highly successful
flagship product Mathematica) I thought, that the programers at Wolfram
are the world's top mathematicians, gathered together to research and
decide and write a extremely advanced technology. But i realized it is
not so. Not at all. In fact, we might say it's just a bunch of Ph Ds
(or equivalent experience). Each person there are not unlike average
white-collar Joes. Each working individually. And, fights and bouts of
arguments between co-workers are not uncommon. Sometimes downright
ugly. Almost nothing is as i naively imagined, as if some world's top
mathematicians are gathered together there, daily to confer and solve
the world's top problems as in some top secret government agency
depicted in movies.
Well, that was my introduction to the industry. The bulk of my surprise
is due to my naiveness and inexperience of the industry, of any
industry, as i was just a intern and this is my first experience seeing
how the real world works.
After Wolfram, after a couple of years i went into the web programing
industry in 1998, using unix, Perl, Apache, Java, database
technologies, in the center of world's technology the Silicon Valley.
My evaluation of industrial programers and how software are written is
a precipitous fall from my observations at Wolfram. In the so-called
Info Tech industry, the vast majority of programers are poorly
qualified. I learned this from my colleagues, and in dealing with
programers from other companies, service providers, data centers, sys
admins, API gateways, and duties of field tutoring. I didn't think i
had very qualified expertise in what i do, but the reality i realized
is that most are far lesser than me, and that is the common situation.
That they have no understanding of basic mathematics such as
trigonometry or calculus. Most have no interest in math whatsoever, and
would be hard pressed for them to explain what is a “algorithmâ€.
I have always thought, that programing X software of field Y usually
means that the programers are thoroughly fluent in languages,
protocols, tools of X, and also being a top expert in field of Y. But
to my great surprise, the fact is that that is almost never the case.
In fact, most of the time the programers simply just had to learn a
language, protocol, software tool, right at the moment as he is trying
to implement a software for a field he never had experience in. I
myself had to do jobs half of the time i've never done before.
Constantly I'm learning new languages, protocols, systems, tools, APIs,
other rising practices and technologies, reading semi-written or delve
into non-existent docs. It is the norm in the IT industry, that most
products are really produces of learning experiences. Extremely hurried
grasping of new technologies in competition with deadlines. There is in
fact little actual learning going on, as there are immense pressure to
simply “get it to (demonstrably) work†and ship it.
Thinking back, in fact the Wolfram people are the most knowledgeable
and inquisitive people i've met as colleagues, by far.
What prompted me to write this essay is after reading the essay Teach
Yourself Programming in Ten Years by Peter Norvig, 2001, at
http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html (local copy). In which, the Lisp
dignitary Peter Norvig derides the widely popular computing books in
the name of Teaching Yourself X In (Fast) Days. Although i agree with
his general sentiment that a language or technology takes time to
master and use well, that these books is a damaging fad and subtly
generate ignorance, but he fails to address the main point, that is:
the cause of the popularity of such books, and how to remedy the
situation.
These books are the bedrock of the industry. It is not because people
are impatient, or that they wish to hurry, but rather, it is the
condition of the IT industry, in the same way modern society drives
people to live certain live styles. No amount of patience or
proselytization can right this, except that we change the industry's
practice of quickly churning out bug-ridden software products to beat
competitors. Companies do that due to market forces, and the market
forces is a result of how people and organizations actually choose to
purchase software. In my opinion, a solution to this is by installing
the concept of responsible licenses, as i've detailed in the essay
Responsible Software Licensing, at
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/responsible_license.html .
----
This post is archived at:
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/it_programers.html
Xah
(e-mail address removed)
∑ http://xahlee.org/
Xah Lee, 2006-05
Before i stepped into the computing industry, my first industrial
programing experience is at Wolfram Research Inc as a intern in 1995.
(Wolfram Research is famously known for their highly successful
flagship product Mathematica) I thought, that the programers at Wolfram
are the world's top mathematicians, gathered together to research and
decide and write a extremely advanced technology. But i realized it is
not so. Not at all. In fact, we might say it's just a bunch of Ph Ds
(or equivalent experience). Each person there are not unlike average
white-collar Joes. Each working individually. And, fights and bouts of
arguments between co-workers are not uncommon. Sometimes downright
ugly. Almost nothing is as i naively imagined, as if some world's top
mathematicians are gathered together there, daily to confer and solve
the world's top problems as in some top secret government agency
depicted in movies.
Well, that was my introduction to the industry. The bulk of my surprise
is due to my naiveness and inexperience of the industry, of any
industry, as i was just a intern and this is my first experience seeing
how the real world works.
After Wolfram, after a couple of years i went into the web programing
industry in 1998, using unix, Perl, Apache, Java, database
technologies, in the center of world's technology the Silicon Valley.
My evaluation of industrial programers and how software are written is
a precipitous fall from my observations at Wolfram. In the so-called
Info Tech industry, the vast majority of programers are poorly
qualified. I learned this from my colleagues, and in dealing with
programers from other companies, service providers, data centers, sys
admins, API gateways, and duties of field tutoring. I didn't think i
had very qualified expertise in what i do, but the reality i realized
is that most are far lesser than me, and that is the common situation.
That they have no understanding of basic mathematics such as
trigonometry or calculus. Most have no interest in math whatsoever, and
would be hard pressed for them to explain what is a “algorithmâ€.
I have always thought, that programing X software of field Y usually
means that the programers are thoroughly fluent in languages,
protocols, tools of X, and also being a top expert in field of Y. But
to my great surprise, the fact is that that is almost never the case.
In fact, most of the time the programers simply just had to learn a
language, protocol, software tool, right at the moment as he is trying
to implement a software for a field he never had experience in. I
myself had to do jobs half of the time i've never done before.
Constantly I'm learning new languages, protocols, systems, tools, APIs,
other rising practices and technologies, reading semi-written or delve
into non-existent docs. It is the norm in the IT industry, that most
products are really produces of learning experiences. Extremely hurried
grasping of new technologies in competition with deadlines. There is in
fact little actual learning going on, as there are immense pressure to
simply “get it to (demonstrably) work†and ship it.
Thinking back, in fact the Wolfram people are the most knowledgeable
and inquisitive people i've met as colleagues, by far.
What prompted me to write this essay is after reading the essay Teach
Yourself Programming in Ten Years by Peter Norvig, 2001, at
http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html (local copy). In which, the Lisp
dignitary Peter Norvig derides the widely popular computing books in
the name of Teaching Yourself X In (Fast) Days. Although i agree with
his general sentiment that a language or technology takes time to
master and use well, that these books is a damaging fad and subtly
generate ignorance, but he fails to address the main point, that is:
the cause of the popularity of such books, and how to remedy the
situation.
These books are the bedrock of the industry. It is not because people
are impatient, or that they wish to hurry, but rather, it is the
condition of the IT industry, in the same way modern society drives
people to live certain live styles. No amount of patience or
proselytization can right this, except that we change the industry's
practice of quickly churning out bug-ridden software products to beat
competitors. Companies do that due to market forces, and the market
forces is a result of how people and organizations actually choose to
purchase software. In my opinion, a solution to this is by installing
the concept of responsible licenses, as i've detailed in the essay
Responsible Software Licensing, at
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/responsible_license.html .
----
This post is archived at:
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/it_programers.html
Xah
(e-mail address removed)
∑ http://xahlee.org/
X
Xah Lee
Thanks to the great many people who has written to my ISP in support of
me. I'm sorry to say, it looks like they will be killing my account
anyhow. I have exchanged a couple letters with the guy at my web host
and he is not changing the decision.
Of this thread, i think 2/3 or 3/4 supported my view that this
constitutes a harassment and the canceling of my account is not right,
even if some disliked my writings. However, there are a few who has
made accusations because of my alleged “spam†or “abuse†of
newsgroups.
I've been considering of writing a single essay to reply or explain
these wrongful accusations. Or, perhaps these people prefer me to write
short replies at quantity as they do, so that i'm “in the
community†or “not using newsgroups as a blogâ€. In my opinion,
making multiple short, fast replies is one problem that plagues and
perpetuates the newsgroups nature of drivels and brainlessness. Most
people who have problem with me simply because i sound cocky and do not
bow to them.
Another point i'd like to make, is about cross-posting. Tech geekers,
due to their pissing male nature, often turns a cross-posted messages
to a flamewar if the message contained any slight possibility of being
perceived as sensitive. (students in fact constitute a significant
portion, if not majority, of the newsgroup demograph) The problem isn't
cross-posting itself, but the tech geekers themselves. As Steve Yegge
has pointed out in his essay “Software Needs Philosophersâ€,that
languages and its people are full of religious hot-air. And, computing
languages and its people, are forever ignorant and blindly fanatical of
their own and attack outsiders. When i learned Python in 2005, i
thought it is a great language that remedies the problems created by
the Perl cult. But as i realized, the Python people are as militant,
poor in knowledge, and in fact ignorant of computer languages and
constantly propagandize their own and attack others. The point i want
to make here, is that the taboo of cross-posting is in fact a
contributor to this problem. Most languages stay blindly in their own
community, oblivious to the nature or facts of computing languages
outside of their world. If there are more relevant cross-posting, then
this problem can be lessened.
I have in fact already composed 7 replies to some the accusers of my
alleged abuse of newsgroups. If people like me to post them as a remedy
of me “using newsgroups like a personal blogâ€, i'd be happyto.
As to dreamhost my webhosting company canceling my account, i will try
to reason with them, and see what is the final outcome. They have the
legal right to kick me because in the contract that allowed them to do
so with 30 days advanced noticed and without cause. However, it is my
interest and my right, if they actually do kick me in the end, i'll try
to contact Electronic Frontier Foundation and Better Business bureau
for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know
a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for
less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here
runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return
the favor.)
Thanks.
Xah
(e-mail address removed)
∑ http://xahlee.org/
me. I'm sorry to say, it looks like they will be killing my account
anyhow. I have exchanged a couple letters with the guy at my web host
and he is not changing the decision.
Of this thread, i think 2/3 or 3/4 supported my view that this
constitutes a harassment and the canceling of my account is not right,
even if some disliked my writings. However, there are a few who has
made accusations because of my alleged “spam†or “abuse†of
newsgroups.
I've been considering of writing a single essay to reply or explain
these wrongful accusations. Or, perhaps these people prefer me to write
short replies at quantity as they do, so that i'm “in the
community†or “not using newsgroups as a blogâ€. In my opinion,
making multiple short, fast replies is one problem that plagues and
perpetuates the newsgroups nature of drivels and brainlessness. Most
people who have problem with me simply because i sound cocky and do not
bow to them.
Another point i'd like to make, is about cross-posting. Tech geekers,
due to their pissing male nature, often turns a cross-posted messages
to a flamewar if the message contained any slight possibility of being
perceived as sensitive. (students in fact constitute a significant
portion, if not majority, of the newsgroup demograph) The problem isn't
cross-posting itself, but the tech geekers themselves. As Steve Yegge
has pointed out in his essay “Software Needs Philosophersâ€,that
languages and its people are full of religious hot-air. And, computing
languages and its people, are forever ignorant and blindly fanatical of
their own and attack outsiders. When i learned Python in 2005, i
thought it is a great language that remedies the problems created by
the Perl cult. But as i realized, the Python people are as militant,
poor in knowledge, and in fact ignorant of computer languages and
constantly propagandize their own and attack others. The point i want
to make here, is that the taboo of cross-posting is in fact a
contributor to this problem. Most languages stay blindly in their own
community, oblivious to the nature or facts of computing languages
outside of their world. If there are more relevant cross-posting, then
this problem can be lessened.
I have in fact already composed 7 replies to some the accusers of my
alleged abuse of newsgroups. If people like me to post them as a remedy
of me “using newsgroups like a personal blogâ€, i'd be happyto.
As to dreamhost my webhosting company canceling my account, i will try
to reason with them, and see what is the final outcome. They have the
legal right to kick me because in the contract that allowed them to do
so with 30 days advanced noticed and without cause. However, it is my
interest and my right, if they actually do kick me in the end, i'll try
to contact Electronic Frontier Foundation and Better Business bureau
for whatever advice or action i can solicit. Meanwhile, if you do know
a web hosting company that can take some 80 G of bandwidth/month for
less than $25 a month, please let me know! (i do hope if someone here
runs a hosting business and can host my site. I will certainly return
the favor.)
Thanks.
Xah
(e-mail address removed)
∑ http://xahlee.org/